by Tim Ventura and Dr. Joseph Farrell
March 20, 2007

from AmericanAntigravity Website



Dr. Joseph P. Farrell is an internationally-known author and researcher in Tesla studies and esoteric technology.

He is the author of several books on topics from Egypt to WW-II, and is a retired University Professor specializing in the study of Patristics (the study of pre 8th-century Christianity).

For additional information, contact him via email at .


The Nazi-Bell is the dead relic of a bygone era - an unfinished icon of a war come and gone…or is it?


Once again cast in the spotlight with the release of Joseph Farrell’s “SS Brotherhood of the Bell”, the story this time takes on a more ominous tone as new details emerge - including rumors that the remote test site has been unexpectedly purchased and scheduled for demolition.


We join Farrell on a journey to uncover the war’s most compelling mystery, over 60 years in the making…

AAG: I’d like to start out with a bit of background information. Can you tell me about yourself, some of the books that you’ve written in the past? I’d like to learn about what drives you as an author, and what first inspired you to take on the challenging subject of the Nazi-Bell?

Farrell: Well, by academic training and background I’ve always dealt with ancient texts, and been trained to notice things. But when I was younger I quickly developed an interest in physics.


I read Einstein’s and Infeld’s Evolution of Physics when I was in the 7th grade, and that started a lifelong interest in the subject, which I try to stay abreast of, reading papers and books in both the mainstream and “alternative” areas of physics as much as I can.


Most of my books deal with physics in some way shape or form, and with the peculiar interface between history and physics, seeking to answer mysteries of history with physics speculation.


I’ve written five books in this alternative physics-and-history area thus far, plus have a new one coming out sometime in the next two or three months I’d imagine.


AAG: Now culturally speaking, books on Nazi secret-weapons may seem a little dated, and yet some of the biggest Hollywood blockbusters in the last few years have been WW-II movies, such as “Flags of our Fathers” and “Saving Private Ryan”.


What is it about the Second World War that continues to captivate us, and why doesn’t Vietnam, the Gulf War, or even World War I provoke the same reaction?


Dr. Joseph Farrell:

Author of “ SS Brotherhood of the Bell ”, a history of Nazi secret weapons research.


Farrell: That’s a great question, and one, I think, that a lot of people ask, and my own intuition is that it has something to do with the clear-cut moral and spiritual aspect of that war; it was a war between real good and real evil; the Kaiser’s Germany was not, after all, ultimately out to “conquer the world” and exterminate whole peoples or to turn them into slaves; Nazi Germany was.


And I think, too, that World War Two fascinates us because it was the first truly modern war. From the technological standpoint, most of our modern weapons - smart bombs, missiles, radar stealth technology, television guided bombs, even computers and directed energy weapons - have some prototypical antecedent that dates from that war, and much of it traceable to Nazi and Allied secret weapons projects.


Even from the standpoint of military doctrine I think there is a fascination, because the Germans really invented modern mobile combined arms maneuver warfare and the basic concept of firepower attrition. So I think there’s any number of ways or reasons that we find the war so fascinating.


AAG: In terms of research for the book, I understand that you consulted extensively with defense journalist Igor Witkowski, who is also a primary source for Nick Cook’s coverage of this topic in “The Hunt for Zero Point”. Can you tell us about working with Witkowski, and what came out of that collaboration?

Farrell: Yes I did. Igor and I exchanged some letters and emails as I was writing the book, and swapping information and brainstorming ideas, many of which did not actually make it into the book at all. Like you, I have a tremendous respect for Witkowski’s work in his book The Truth About the Wunderwaffe.


And we both share the opinion that it was certainly worth the $80 we paid to get it. Igor is very easy to work with, and considers his sources and evidences very rationally and carefully. One thing I think that he and I would both be agreed upon, and that is that there is certainly more work that can and should be done on the Nazi Bell story, as your own articles on that subject also indicate.


I think he and I now are both sort of re-grouping and considering where to go from here: Do we pursue the historical line and aspect of the story, or the technological and physics one?


I think in a story like this it’s difficult to disentangle the two and that any further work on the subject will be along the lines that Igor and I pursued in our books.


Igor Witkowski:

Defense-journalist who broke the Bell story in “Truth about the Wunderwaffe


AAG: Now “SS Brotherhood of the Bell” covers more than just the Bell - what are some of the other secret weapons that you describe in the book, and are there any revelations about new devices that might surprise us?

Farrell: Well, actually I don’t speak a great deal about other German secret weapons in The SS Brotherhood of the Bell other than to reference some of the inter-continental rockets that they were developing, plus some discussion on their over-the-horizon phased array radars that they also developed as guidance systems for them.


That in itself is a revelation, because the standard Allied Legend about German radars was that it wasn’t as sophisticated as Allied radar and so on. In some respects that is true but in others - such as these over-the-horizon radars - it is not. I also mention these radars because it’s my belief that they played a role in their late-war RAM experiments, where I believe they discovered aspects of wave-mixing and phase conjugation by multi-beam interferometry on some of their RAM material.


Of course, your readers will recognize those same elements in the presentations of scalar physics that Lt. Col. Tom Bearden has been making over the years.


This fact, plus certain things about the Bell itself, indicate to me that the Nazis may have been deliberately seeking or doing research into various aspects of scalar physics and the related ideas of vortex mechanics and torsion fields and so on.


AAG: Now in terms of breakthrough propulsion, there seems to be a lot of confusion about,

Can you help us better understand the delineation between these separate projects, and perhaps help us to understand why the Nazi’s would run so many overlapping secret-projects concurrently?

Farrell: This is really an excellent question. The short and simple answer is that the Bell is not in any way similar to Schauberger’s research, the purported research of the pre-war Vril Gesellschaft, or even the Coanda Effect saucer research associated with various names and the Peenemuende rocket research center.


There is some resemblance between Schauberger’s research and the Bell in that both projects - in my presentation of the physics of the Bell - involved a well-developed vortex mechanics and vorticular theory of the medium. And in that respect, I suspect that there was some liaison between the projects. Though I don’t go into this at all in the book, I’d like to speculate a bit here on what I think that liaison may have been.


Both Schauberger’s project and the Bell fell under the aegis and jurisdiction of the Waffen SS, and there are strong indicators that both projects were part of SS Obergruppenfuehrer Hans Kammler’s super-secret black projects empire, headquartered out of the Skoda Munitions Works’ engineering project at Pilsen, Czechoslovakia. Bohemian Czechoslovakia was, of course, at that time, a “Reich Protectorate” and was under the direct jurisdiction of the SS, which made it the perfect place to headquarter and coordinate such black projects.


Most people don’t know it, but one aspect of Kammler’s black projects empire was its coordination via a “think tank” of scientists that he recruited for these projects.


This department actually published and circulated its own Top Secret “journal” of their scientific papers to each other. In other words, these scientists were expected to brainstorm and think outside the box, and to map out the technologies trees necessary to bring various technologies to fruition.

I believe that this is precisely what we see with the various Nazi saucer projects. What we’re seeing is not “absence” of coordination or an “inefficient duplication of effort,” but rather the steps in a technology tree that had been worked out towards the acquisition of field propulsion machines. We see the Coanda Effect saucers, which we may interpret in this speculative context as a kind of “Mark I” or first step.


Then there are Schauberger’s devices, which are based on his understanding of what he called “implosion”, which on examination are devices relying on the creation of vortices, feedback loops and so on, which would be a “Mark II”, a step along the way toward the Bell. At the top of this tree is the Bell itself, a project overseen by Dr. Walther Gerlach of Nobel Prize winning fame.


Gerlach’s specialty was, of course, gravitation, magnetic spin and resonance, and so on. So one sees here the theoretical brains that can make sense of it all. The projects “overlap” in other words, because they were meant to overlap, with each stage designed to research certain aspects of a problem.

In this light - again speculating here in this interview for the first time on this question - I believe the real purpose of the Coanda Effect saucer research was not so much to create a craft based upon it, but to research the lift and drag problems associated with such a craft for use in later projects.


If they could be made practical devices in their own right along the way, then so much the better. The Schauberger research would then have been to research aspects of vortex creation as a motive power for such devices. In fact, I think in this regard that it is interesting that the Schauberger project was started around 1943, after the “Mark I” research was well under way. This research would have been the ideal experimental context in which to research and test certain concepts of vortex mechanics.


Then of course, there is the last step, the Bell itself.

I should also stress that I speak more about the Kammlerstab and its “method of operation” in the prequel to The SS Brotherhood of the Bell, a book called Reich of the Black Sun.


Again, at the risk of being redundant, I don’t view these as “separated” projects but as interrelated projects, since they bear the signature of the Kammlerstab’s modus operandi of mapping out technology trees and putting into place the practical projects necessary to bring their ideas to fruition.


Anyone approaching the subject of Nazi secret weapons has to bear this in mind, that while the various projects - sound cannon, wind and tornado cannon, disintegration rays and death rays, and lasers, grasers, EMP devices, endothermic bombs and fuel-air bombs - all of it, is not a messy or inefficient squandering of resources or duplication of effort, since these projects were coordinated at an extremely high level by the SS, which oversaw all patents applications in the Reich.


AAG: Dr. Eric Davis speculated that the Nazi Bell was a centrifuge for refining nuclear materials mined in the nearby mountains and not any type of propulsion system or advanced physics project.


Does his speculation answer all of the unresolved questions associated with the Bell project?


Viktor Schauberger:

Repulsine inventor but not associated with the Bell project.


Farrell: That is an interesting observation, because it is an observation I myself made in my book Reich of the Black Sun.


Nazi uranium enrichment centrifuge technology is one of the little known aspects of their secret weapons research, but in point of fact, the Nazis brought this technology to such a state of perfection that one may safely say that this method of uranium enrichment is a uniquely “German” one.


It is my belief that the Nazis used this technology - and Von Ardenne’s modifications of cyclotrons with mass spectrometer separation tanks (much like Lawrence’s beta calutrons in the United States) - in a large uranium enrichment plant at Auschwitz. I get into this story in Reich of the Black Sun, but it is an essential story for the Bell, since German success with centrifuges would have given them the necessary experience in dealing with high rpm rotation machinery and the close precision tolerances that were necessary in such devices.


This, of course, was an essential component in the Bell as well, which consisted of high rpm counter-rotating cylinders in a modified “plasma focus” device. So yes, I believe that there is a connection between the Bell and their centrifuge technology and their atom bomb program.

That being said, there are two other connections to their atom bomb project as well. The first is the Bell’s scientific project head, Dr. Walther Gerlach himself, who is by 1944 also in charge of the Reich’s nuclear research. But the Bell is Gerlach’s “special baby” as it were.


I present a certain amount of evidence in the book from the Farm Hall Transcripts plus Igor Witkowski’s research that indicate clearly that Gerlach was investigating some very esoteric areas of physics indeed, areas that could only have been associated with the Bell. And it is significant that only Gerlach was subsequently interred and interrogated by the USA after the British were through with him at Farm Hall.


The rest of the scientists, including Hahn, Diebner, Korsching, Hartek and Heisenberg were allowed to return to Germany. Only Gerlach was thought to be valuable enough to question further.


In itself, this is significant, because Gerlach’s area of expertise, once again, was not related to nuclear or quantum physics at all, but to areas associated with magnetic resonance, particle spin, gravitation and so on.


Dense Plasma Focus

A modern version of what the Nazi-Bell is speculated to have looked like.


The other connection is with the Bell’s “fuel” itself, the mysterious liquid compound called “IRR Xerum 525” itself. I devote a whole chapter just to this aspect of the problem in the book.


In a nutshell, though, I believe this Serum 525 to have been an isotope of mercury which also contained other elements, most likely themselves radioactive isotopes, in solution or chemical composition with this mercury isotope, and even speculate that these substances might have been isomers, though it should be noted that if isomers were present in the compound, it would have been in extremely minute amounts given the technological difficulty of isolating them at that time.


But even if this extremely speculative notion is not actually the case, there is a certain bit of coincidental evidence that at least one element possibly also present in this compound may have been thorium, for it is a little known fact that one the Nazis literally scoured Europe and denuded it of almost all of its thorium.


This fact led to a post-war Allied inquiry into this, which came to a dead end: no real answers were ever found as to what happened to this thorium nor what the Nazis were really doing with it. So it’s my suspicion that it may have been a needed element in this Serum 525 compound.

Here is where I believe Witkowski’s analysis breaks down a bit, though it is true as far as it goes. The mercury component of the compound would, of course, be ideal for plasma research, which self-evidently the Bell was designed to do.


But how does one explain the possible presence of other isotopes?


My speculation is - and again it is very speculative - that the Nazis may have also been trying to access certain other effects with these materials via the stress that the Bell created in them.


These effects might be analogous to something like the Mossbauer Effect which is used in part in the cohering of gamma ray emissions and so on, and thus the strange effects that the Bell had on “jellifying” various organic materials and its initial and quite deadly effects on humans and animals might be explained by some such mechanism.


And I believe, and present a certain amount of speculative reasoning in the book, that these effects may be related to the torsion field effects or longitudinal electric waves in the medium itself that I believe the Nazis were really after.


Put this way, then, the Bell was early on recognized by the Nazis as having not only a potential for “field” propulsion, but also a weapons potential that would have made the hydrogen bomb look like a kitchen match.

And all of this, incidentally, was right up Gerlach’s alley, for as I also present in the book, Gerlach had actually written a short article in a pre-war German newspaper, many years before the Nazis came to power in fact, what sorts of amazing things might be done with mercury when subjected to high electrical and magnetic stress.


The Book:

Joseph Farrell’s in-depth documentary on the secret “Brotherhood of the Bell


AAG: One of those biggest unresolved questions is what happened to Hans Kammler after the war. If he managed to get away - and get away with the Bell, then why haven’t we seen any hints of this technology or Kammler himself in last half a century?

Farrell: Well that is - allowing for inflation - the sixty-four trillion dollar question! Nick Cook, Witkowski, and I all present evidences in our books that would seem to indicate that General Kammler disappeared, along with the Bell and most of its project documentation, into the bowels of some post-war American project.


But there is also a certain body of evidence uncovered by British researcher Geoffrey Brooks that indicates that Kammler and the Bell wound up in Argentina at the plasma physics laboratory that General Peron built for fleeing Nazi physicists in Bariloche province in Argentina. While initially I followed Witkowski and Cook’s idea that it disappeared into the USA, lately I lean more toward the idea that the Bell remained in independent Nazi hands.

Now, as for the question about why haven’t we seen or heard more about this technology since the war, in fact, I think we have heard about it, and I present this evidence in a chapter in Reich of the Black Sun and also repeated it, in slightly condensed form, in The SS Brotherhood of the Bell. And that episode is: the Kecksburg UFO crash in December of 1965 in Pennsylvania.


On any number of data points the Bell and the Kecksburg “acorn” are similar, from their shape, to the dimensions recorded by eyewitnesses for both objects, to the peculiar sound both objects made and so on. But for me the clincher is this: the Kecksburg “Acorn” was supposedly seen by an eyewitness at Wright-Patterson airbase.


According to research done by Kecksburg researcher Stan Gordon, this eyewitness worked for a local construction company in Dayton, where one day shortly after the incident an order was placed for thousands of ceramic bricks.

Now this is interesting, because Witkowski’s research made it clear that the Bell was housed and tested in an underground chamber that was constructed from ceramic bricks! So in other words, we have not only the same dimensions and shapes recorded for the two objects, but also the same physical environment is reported for both. I think this is highly significant and suggestive, since the Kecksburg accounts pre-date the descriptions of the Bell uncovered by Witkowski.


In other words, the possibilities of collusion between the two stories is almost nill.


SS Gen Hans Kammler:

Military leader in charge of the secret Nazi-Bell development effort in Poland.


It is also intriguing to me that by any account, the American military showed up in Kecksburg so quickly after the object there had crash-landed.


The military, in other words, was ready to go, and, it would seem, merely waiting to find out exactly where the object came down in order to recover it. To my mind then, the parallels between the two objects is significant and a possible connection - or even identity - between the two should not be too readily dismissed.


If this is so, then it puts a new spin - not to coin a pun - on the question of what happened to Kammler and the Bell, for if the Bell was not in American hands at the end of the war, then by the time of Kecksburg, it or a similar device was recovered by them!


AAG: Is this a dead story, or is somebody actively trying to keep this technology a secret? A friend of mine visited the Bell test-site in 2006, and was told by the local villagers that a business conglomerate had bought the test site, and would be demolishing it to build a factory on the site. In my friend’s case, he decided to quit asking questions and move on to another project.


Do you think that was simple paranoia, or do the proverbial walls have eyes?

Farrell: No, I don’t think it’s paranoia at all, and I do think there is evidence - and I go into this extensively in the book - that someone, somewhere, is using “active measures” including so-called “wet operations” to maintain the secrecy surrounding the technology.


Even on the view that the Bell is “merely” a field propulsion device relying on torsion fields or electro-longitudinal waves in a kind of hyper-relativity, that would be a technology well worth protecting, for it implies the engineerability of local space-time curvature.


Once we have said that, we open the Pandora's box to the use of the same type of technology to engineer or stress local space-time for weaponization purposes, i.e., for destructive purposes. And that, of course, would - to be repetitive here again - make a hydrogen bomb look like a kitchen match. So yes, anyone having access to such technology would seek to suppress it for two reasons: to maintain their monopoly, and to prevent a proliferation nightmare beyond the wildest nightmares of cold war think-tank wargamers from occurring. In a certain sense I guess what I am saying is that, given mankind’s propensity for warfare and destruction, such a technology would have to be suppressed.


But however one looks at it, I don’t think suppression can ever be a successful strategy, simply because the type of physics the Bell represents will inevitably get out.


After all, your own website has numerous references to various physicists and engineers - people like Bearden, Dering, and so on - whose theories I believe play directly into the theoretical development that I believe lies behind the Bell.


AAG: Now in terms of conspiracies, the part that bothers me is that neither the USA nor the Russians seem to have this technology. So if something is still going on, where is it, who has it, and why hasn’t it ever gone public?


Maybe this leads back to the question of where Hans Kammler fled to after the war?


Recent Activity:

A photo taken from the top of the Bell ‘flytrap’ by an anonymous source in mid-2005.
A photo of the Nazi Bell 'flytrap',

showing heavy-duty steel mounting bolts sheared off by what appears to be a welder.


Farrell: Well, to some extent I have answered this already.


If my Kecksburg speculations are true, then something like the Bell clearly ends up in American hands by 1965, if it was not already in American hands at the end of the war. But as I mentioned previously, I am increasingly inclined to the view that the Bell simply disappeared into the labyrinth of post-war independent Nazi research conducted in places like South America and under the nominal oversight of Nazi-friendly governments like Peron’s Argentina or, later, Pinochet’s Chile.


Nazi connections and influence in the vast Latin American drug cartels and their criminal activities would have provided a nearly inexhaustible supply of funds, plus accomplish at the same time a strategic goal of weakening a former enemy, namely the USA.


The reason I incline increasingly to this “independent and continuing Nazi” development for the Bell is simply, as you say, the fact that the technology and science simply seems to have disappeared entirely.


AAG: In addition to Kammler, you’ve raised a number of questions about German scientists such as Von Braun and Debus. They came to the USA as Operation Paperclip scientists, and what made them valuable was their knowledge of these Nazi secret-weapons programs. Can you tell us which of them were prominent in your research, and what you found about their activities during and after the war?

Farrell: Oh wow, another excellent and provocative question! Well, to me, beyond Gerlach himself, the most interesting of these characters has always been Dr. Kurt Debus.


Debus is intriguing for the speculative possibilities that he represents, because he ends up, of course, as a senior administrator in NASA of the Kennedy Space Flight Center during the Apollo program. As an administrator, then, this means that he has his fingers in almost every pie there is inside NASA, and thus he as a very clear picture of what’s really going on.

This is intriguing, then, for yet other reasons, for as I make clear in SS Brotherhood, Debus was an ardent Nazi, and nearly created chaos in the Bell project by denouncing a fellow engineer to the Gestapo. One of the firms involved with the Bell, the Allgemeine Elektricitäts Gemeinshaft, A.E.G., had to intervene to free the man whom Debus had denounced to allow the project to continue.


It is due to this intervention that we know that the Bell was given its own unique classification, the highest classification, in fact, in the Third Reich, a classification that made the Bell not only a Geheime Reichsache but Kriegsenscheidend, or “War Decisive”, a classification found in absolutely no other secret project in all of Nazi Germany, including its successful fuel-air, and its atom bomb, projects.

But beyond this, Debus is interested for what his specialty in science was, and for his connection both to Von Braun’s Peenemünde rocket team and to the Bell project, connections which were, in each case, direct. With Debus, then, we have one of those “overlaps” that is so characteristic of the Kammlerstab.


Debus was the man who designed the powerplant for the Bell! Now this is very intriguing to me, because his specialty was the measurement of extremely high voltage direct current discharges! Shades of Nikola Tesla.


I find this very suggestive, for I present evidence in the book, based on Witkowski’s observations, that the Bell may have also been a pulsed device utilizing HV DC pulses, a fact made the more interesting in that the Nazis apparently built an entire power plant very near the Bell’s test sites in lower Silesia, a fact that would possibly indicate another connection to the use of DC electricity in the device, since close proximity to such a power source would have been required if DC were used, much like Edison’s DC power plants would have had to have been placed every few miles or so for practical electrification along DC lines.

But whatever one makes of these speculations, Debus is interesting of course because he ends up as a senior administrator in a space flight center in NASA during the Apollo program, and his specialty is not even rockets at all! I suggest in the book that this is because there may have been a hidden or alternative technology involved in the Lunar Excursion Module (LEM) that got us OFF the Moon.


Please don’t get me wrong here. I’m not one of those “Apollo was hoaxed” people at all. I am not even remotely sympathetic to such views. But I do share the concern that I don’t really see the signatures of a rocket taking off from the Moon in those films of the LEMs taking off.


It doesn’t look like an acceleration that is geometric enough to be a rocket; it just sort of “pops up” and off it goes at more or less - it looks to me - like uniform velocity, though I must admit I haven’t actually done any measurements or not to see if this is the case. I am merely reporting what my eyes see and my mind tells me based upon those perceptions.

So, lacking this “geometric enough” signature of a rocket’s acceleration, we might be dealing with an alternative technology, a field propulsion technology, in getting us OFF the Moon, and the presence of Debus in NASA in his position would be the perfect place both to place someone who was once involved in such a project, and as well the perfect place to put someone in order to keep that technology quiet.


In short, the Paperclip Nazis in NASA reconstructed as much of that technology as they could, and used it to get us off of a Moon which they possibly knew to be more massive than popularly reported, which, if the case, would have made a return vehicle based merely on rockets impractical.


AAG: As I understand things, in “SS Brotherhood of the Bell” you challenge the notion that the Majestic 12 was founded in response to a UFO crash in Roswell, and instead speculate that they were somehow a product of American worries about these Nazi technologies, right? Can you elaborate a bit of this notion?

Farrell: Well, it’s an idea I elaborate both in Reich of the Black Sun and in The SS Brotherhood of the Bell. Basically I do not question the Roswell crash or the MJ-12 Cooper-Cantwheel documents. I accept them as “givens” in order to make an academic argument, i.e., to present an alternative explanation of the crash and the documents’ own contents.


As such, many people do not really understand what I’m trying to do and misinterpret it. In short, my method is to examine the internal evidence of the documents themselves by way of a comparison to known Nazi secret weapons projects such as the Coanda effect saucers, and so on, and to compare these known technologies with the technological descriptions found in the documents themselves.


The long and short of it is, that the documents do not describe a technology exotic enough to be extraterrestrial, though they do describe a technology exotic enough to be Nazi.


Thus, the documents themselves also allude time and again to the involvement of the “paperclip” people in the assessment of the crashed vehicle. So I my view, what really would have set the alarm bells ringing in the American military was if something Nazi had crashed there, for it would mean that the former “defeated” enemy was alive, well, and continuing its projects somewhere out there.


On this view, then, the “ET” line, at least as far as Roswell is concerned, would merely have been a final deeply embedded layer of disinformation, a final “deep cover” story to cover up the exotic, though still terrestrial, and Nazi nature of what was recovered there.


Dr. Kurt Debus:

Part of Von Braun’s V2 team, and later a Launch Director at NASA


AAG: You know, I think “Dr Strangelove” effectively made the point that ex-Nazi scientists had their own agendas, and letting them work in our government after the war might have some unintended consequences. In Kubrick’s film, Strangelove mistakenly calls our President “Mein Führer” on two occasions… suggesting that these scientists had their own agendas, regardless of which government they worked for.


Any thoughts on this?

Farrell: I believe I’ve answered this in some respects with my Kecksburg and Roswell speculations. But to expand on it a bit, Paperclip was but the tip of the iceberg in post-war Nazi penetration of various departments of the American government.


We must remember that long before President Truman had even signed the National Security Act of 1947, which created the CIA and NSA, their civilian character and charter was already severely compromised by the fact that the CIA’s predecessor, the OSS, had taken over, lock stock and barrel, General Reinhard Gehlen’s Fremde Heere Ost, or “Foreign Armies East”, the Wehrmacht’s military intelligence on the Eastern front, inside of the Soviet Union and Eastern Europe.


From a certain standpoint, then, the entire “Soviet Operations and Analysis” desk of the CIA was staffed almost entirely by Nazis, who remained under Gehlen’s direct control.


And the American who did this wonderful “service” for our country was none other than OSS Zurich station chief Allen Dulles. And I’ll let your readers work out the connections and implications from there, because it’s horrifying…


AAG: Before this interview, we had a few interesting conversations on topics relating to WW-II secret weapons, and it seems that references to W.A. Harbinson’s Projekt Saucer series keep coming up - especially in reference to his fictional novel “Genesis”, which speculates that the worldwide wave of UFO sightings that started in 1947 might actually have been from Nazi technology developed near the end of the war. How do you think this fits with your speculation about the origin of Majestic 12?

Farrell: Well it fits quite well with it. In fact, one thing that I find rather unusual is that so many novelists seemed to be ahead of the curve of more factually based researchers on this question. For example, years before Witkowski’s research was published, in fact, before even the German reunification itself, the famous novelist Dean Koontz wrote a novel called Lightning.


It is about a German secret weapon which is a “time travel” machine. While that sounds rather extraordinary and fanciful, it is Koontz’s descriptions of his fictional time machine that give one pause, for he describes a rotating cylinder using tremendous electrical power, which gives off some extreme electrostatic displays and effects! Now, I find that a little too coincidental to be coincidental…


How did Koontz know this or come up with this?

Harbison’s Projekt Saucer novels are another case in point, as you observe. But what I find very interesting with his novels is that there is no real parallel with the Bell, while there are plenty of parallels with the Coanda Effect and Schuaberger devices. But Harbison is interesting precisely because his novels present the view that this type of research was continued by some independent group of Nazis after the war.


Then there’s Martin Caidin’s novel The Mendelov Conspiracy, in which, again, an independent group of somewhat cranky scientists pursues their independent technological development of saucers.

Now here’s the decisive point: the only hard evidence that exists tends to point to the line of continued Nazi post-war research and development, and not to any other group.


This evidence, once again, consists of,

  1. the disappearance of the Bell, its documentation, and General Kammler

  2. the establishment of a plasma physics research lab in Bariloche province in Argentina by General Peron, a facility established for his Nazi scientists; such a laboratory would be congruent with the type of physics and engineering involved with the Bell

  3. General Kammler and the Bell disappear, apparently, in a massive six-engined Junkers 390 heavy-lift airplane, a plane capable of flying non-stop from Europe to Argentina

  4. Geoffrey Brooks’ evidence, based allegedly on examination of classified Argentine government documents, that Kammler and the Bell did indeed fly into Argentina; and finally, and no less important

  5. the probable disappearance of the Nazi financial mastermind Martin Bormann, de facto and most probable chief of any post-war “Nazi International”, into South America, as the research of Ladislas Farago (Aftermath) and others indicated, and Bormann’s and the post-war “Nazi International’s” deep financial penetration into various corporations and also into criminal syndicates.

There’s your money supply.

My belief, then, is that if there was a continued and independently coordinated and controlled Nazi development of their wartime black projects, that this was probably done not only in totally independent projects, but also “inside” of the black projects of other nations, using those nations’ own compartmentalized security features against them, and to cloak their own covertly coordinated activities.


When one thinks about it, it would not be all that difficult to do, and it also supplies another source of funding.


Projekt Saucer - Book Two - Genesis

Author W.A. Harbinson’s account of Nazi UFO Projects at Peenemunde during WW-II.
A fictionalized account of Nazi UFO Projects at Peenemunde during the Second World War.


AAG: Interestingly, in Harbinson’s later novel, “Inception”, he speculates that secret-weapons and advanced propulsion technology have been around for decades before the war, and that Germany’s involvement during the war came only from being fertile ground in which to develop existing technological concepts.


Do you think there’s any merit to that notion?

Farrell: Yes I definitely do think there’s merit to it, and in fact, present evidence that the Bell project may have been the legacy of secret research actually begun under the Weimar Republic, and again, under the aegis of Walther Gerlach.


As Lt. Col. Tom Bearden has never tired of pointing out, one of the seminal papers for “scalar” physics was the paper “On the partial differential equations of mathematical physics,” by renowned Physicist E.T. Whittaker, a paper which I have and have read repeatedly.


It is as breathtaking as Bearden makes it out to be, but what I think he misses, to a certain extent, is the significance of where it was published: it was published in Mathematische Annalen, in Germany.


So we have a very fertile conceptual and socio-scientific climate inside Germany with figures like Gerlach, Thirring (who was actually Austrian), Einstein, Hilgenberg, Krafft, and so on, who can look at certain experiments, or, for that matter, certain tensor expressions in Einstein’s late 20s and early 30s versions of his unified field theory, and conclude that locally engineerable stresses in space-time - a kind of “hyper-relativity” - was possible via certain types of plasma and electromagnetic phenomena.


With Hilgenberg, particularly, we have an entirely worked out vorticular theory of the medium that is an alternative to relativisitic physics, and therefore would have been of interest to the Nazis.


And Gerlach, of course, would certainly have had the mental prowess capable of dressing up Einstein’s UFT, or even of extending it, and making it presentable to the Nazis.


AAG: What does strike me about this “pre-war secret weapons” notion is that Unified Field Theory research became well-known with Kaluza-Klein Theory in 1921, which was one of Einstein’s own inspirations in trying to unify gravitation with the other forces.


Does it seem difficult to imagine military-scientists attempting applied physics projects during the war that might produce effects like those described in the Bell experiment?

Farrell: Oh no, not at all. In fact, not just Kaluza-Klein but there is also Vaclac Hlavaty’s six dimensional extension of it - if I recall correctly it was six dimensions. Someone like Gerlach could certainly have extended these theories and additionally would have been able to appreciate the longitudinal wave work of Tesla, or for that matter, would have understood the enormous significance of Whittaker’s paper.


And his student, of course, was Hilgenberg.


AAG: I understand that you’re a deeply spiritual man, with a PhD in Patristics - the study of early (pre 8th-century) Christianity. As someone with a deep and abiding spiritual faith, is it difficult to write about topics involving the type of evil that the Nazi’s seem to have embodied?

Farrell: No, quite the reverse, actually. In a way, it’s almost a moral imperative to write about it, and to warn people of the nastier and destructive implications of these types of technologies. By the same token, I’m not a Luddite, and don’t believe technologies like this can or should be suppressed.


Similarly, though, it gives me a perspective from which to appreciate the possible ethically sound reasons why various elites would wish to suppress such technologies, for they are, as I have already averred, capable of spawning a proliferation nightmare of weapons far more dangerous than hydrogen bombs, and, from a certain standpoint, weapons much easier to design, engineer, and assemble.


Any physics based on these types of stresses in the medium, or in local space-time curvature, whether one calls it torsion physics or scalar physics or quantum potential physics or whatever, has the potential for weaponization of just horrendously destructive capabilities. I’m trying to let people know, in addition to the many good benefits that such a physics would have - benefits many others have written about - that this physics also has some very disturbing negative potentials as well, and that to handle them we should have some spiritual enlightenment or maturity.


It is, in a way, similar to Einstein’s activism in his later life, for he also had his religious and philosophical foundations and these, in turn, gave him some unique insights into the ethical problems posed by modern physics.


AAG: Is it possible that the public’s fascination with Nazi secret-weapons might be a type of coping mechanism to let us avoid having to emotionally deal with the evils of that War? Certainly WW-II embodied depravity on an entirely new level, and I wonder if perhaps some of the mythology surrounding secret-weapons might not be a means of avoiding the cold, hard reality of the atrocities that occurred during that period.


Is it more comfortable for us to think of scientists in white coats building UFO’s than to think of groups of starving prisoners huddled in war camps, and being slaughtered in numbers too large to count?

Farrell: Well, it might be possible to imagine that, and perhaps that forms some of the motivations for some people, but if so, they are massively misinformed, for as I point out in both books, but particularly in Reich of the Black Sun, the Nazis were able to fulfill the massive labor requirements of their atom bomb program and other secret weapons projects with concentration camp slave labor, which was, of course, unfortunately expendable.


What we must absolutely recognize is that all Nazi secret weapons, including the Bell, were purchased at an enormous and incalculable cost in human suffering and misery, and not just their rockets.


This is why their atom bomb project was so easy to portray as an inept, bungling, miserly-funded effort, when in fact it was none of those things.


Secret Weapons: Reich of the Black Sun

an early foray into WW-II secret weapons by Joseph Farrell.


AAG: I’d like to close by asking where people can buy a copy of “SS Brotherhood of the Bell, as well as learning about any plans or ideas for future books that you might working on. What’s next from Joseph Farrell, and when do you expect we’ll see it?

Farrell: I just finished a new book called The Cosmic War: Interplanetary Warfare, Modern Physics, and Ancient Texts, which should be out by the fall of 2007, and am scratching some notes down for a couple of ideas for two different books, one a kind of sequel to Brotherhood and another having to do more with hidden political histories of the Second World War.


The Cosmic War more or less extends the method I’ve used in my other books of taking modern conceptions in alternative physics and using them to examine some ideas in ancient texts.


The Mystery Deepens: Will the truth about the Bell’s fate ever be revealed...?