Laughlin, Nevada

February 2009

from ProjectCamelot Website



I attempted to stress in my most recent book, NAZI INTERNATIONAL, that the postwar Nazis were not merely tiny enclaves of war criminals huddled, panic-stricken, together in tiny enclaves in Latin America and elsewhere.


They were, on the contrary, highly organized, well-funded, had their own intelligence and security apparatus, and most importantly, were conducting and continuing the lines of research they had begun during the war.
Dr. Joseph P. Farrell


The title of this interview, Nazi International, refers to Joseph Farrell's latest book, in which he details - as do Camelot witnesses Jim Marrs and Peter Levenda, and many other researchers (including Jim Keith, who died in unusual circumstances and to whom we pay tribute here) - how the Nazis were experimenting with technology extremely advanced for their time, and how many Nazi scientists, evaluated as being valuable resources for post-war America, were repatriated to the US under Project Paperclip.





We first heard of Joseph Farrell from Richard Hoagland - and soon after from Nick Cook, the author of The Hunt for Zero Point.


Farrell, like Peter Levenda, is essentially an academic: a document researcher who digs deep into historical detail and has become fascinated, as many others have, with the hidden history of the Third Reich.


He has continued Igor Witkowski's and Nick Cook's research into the enigmatic Nazi Bell: an experimental device, classified at the highest level, that seems to have been used to investigate time distortion effects or antigravity - very possibly both - based on the beginnings of theoretical torsion physics that was being developed in the 1920s and 1930s by a number of brilliant European scientists, themselves very much ahead of their time.

In this interview, Bill Ryan takes the lead and talks with Joseph Farrell in some depth about his work.


The interview takes the viewer on a journey which starts before the Second World War, and explores just what German scientists may have been doing in great secret, with the full support of the SS. And, as the title of the video indicates, the story by no means ends there.


This video may be of considerable interest to students of wartime advanced technology, and of the hidden history of the Third Reich.



Project Camelot interviews Joseph Farrell








Video Trascription


Bill Ryan (BR): ...So our job is to help you get your information out to the maximum amount of people.

Joseph Farrell (JF): Okay.

BR: And the people who do watch this information are a very eclectic bunch. Weíve got 16-year-old kids whoíve just woken up last month saying: Whatís going on around here? Tell me. Tell me. And then weíve got seasoned researchers like yourself, and even insiders themselves, who watch our videos to get a feel for whatís really going on.

JF: Okay.

BR: And so, one of the reasons why we wanted to talk to you was because youíre a very cogent, lucid and articulate presenter of some very difficult information. Iím sure other people have told you that as well, but we recognize that.

JF: Okay.

BR: And we apologize for putting you under the camera here, to the extent that you donít have your slide slow. [Farrell laughs]. You donít have any prompts and you donít have any notes.

JF: Iíll do shadows. [laughs]

BR: The feeling we had about you is that you have a very good grasp of your information, and we respect that as well. So here we go. Weíre rolling.


Start of interview

So... Iím Bill Ryan from Project Camelot. Iím here with my colleague Kerry Cassidy and weíre delighted to also be here with Joseph Farrell. And off camera just a few moments ago I checked that it was okay to call you Joe...

JF: Oh, absolutely.

BR: ...Ďcause weíre among friends here, and that makes me feel a little bit more relaxed. You may be wondering, and some of our viewers may be wondering how come this is Bill here whoís doing this interview. And just as a little bit of a personal introduction about myself, and also maybe to some of our newer viewers, Iím... If we were the real X-Files, I would actually be Scully. [laughter] Okay? Meaning, Iím the one whoís slightly more scientific, slightly more skeptical, slightly more cautious...

JF: Right.

BR: ...and this is why, between us, many people feel, and we feel ourselves, that we make quite a good team. So I have a math and physics background.

JF: Okay.

BR: I tend not to leap to wild conclusions, but at the same time Iím very happy to think out of the box...

JF: Sure.

BR: I strongly suspect you do as well.

JF: Right.




BR: And one of the reasons why we really wanted to talk to you besides the very high professional quality of your presentation on various interviews that we listened to, to prepare ourselves for this - is that the pieces of the jigsaw that you have collected through your diligent research seem to us to be essential understanding for anyone who really wants to know whatís going on today in geopolitics, in terms of ďblack scienceĒ, maybe even in terms of global agenda, whoís running the show, how it all started, where it all started, and when it all started.

JF: Okay.

BR: And for the benefit of some of our viewers who may not know who you are...

JF: Okay. [laughs]

BR: ...despite that introduction, give us your elevator speech about: Who is Joe Farrell? And how did you come to do what youíre doing right now?

JF: Well, Cliff Notes version: My father was an engineer, so I kind of grew up in a household where science was always kind of a main thing to be stressed, and Iíve always been, you know, individually interested in it. For quite a long period when I was a child, and all through high school later on, I wanted to be a physicist. And then, my senior year I got senioritis, Iím afraid, and wimped out of calculus and selected music theory as my alternative study, but [laughs] that proved to be almost as difficult, if not more so.

So I was also a musician and I got into music. And then when I was in college I took philosophy and that diverted me even further away from my original goal, into philosophy and ancient texts. Iíve also always been interested in history and ancient things, and mysteries, and so on and so forth. So I did my Ph.D. in England and then taught college for a number of years.

BR: In Oxford? Were you in Oxford?

JF: No, no. I wasnít a professor at all at Oxford. I just did my Ph.D. there. I actually taught college in Oklahoma. It was mostly philosophy and history, but I did do an inter-disciplinary seminar at one period of time. That was a team-taught seminar, and the way the other professor and I had to kind of divvy up the various disciplines that we were trying to pull together... Well, she was a biologist so she handled certain things, and I got physics because thatís always been kind of a hobby even though I abandoned the professional pursuit of it, so...

We also discovered we had a common interest, as it were, in the esoteric and alternative things, and I presented some of my Pyramid ideas to her and she says: Oh, youíve got to do that for the class. So I did it for the class and they kind of really liked it, much to my surprise.

After I quit college teaching I decided: Well, you know I might as well bite the bullet and write some of my crazy ideas down. So thatís kind of [laughs] how I got started in all of this. Thatís how it came about.

BR: So youíre quite a polymath.

JF: Ah... I have a lot of interests. Yeah. I wouldnít say polymath, but, yeah, Iíve got a broad spectrum of interests. [laughs]

BR: Youíve already answered one of my questions, which is how come it appears evidently that you have such a grasp of the physics which your research has led you to be entangled with, if I can use that word.

JF: Oh yeah. Well, when I was growing up I was the quintessential nerd. I mean, fun for me when I was a boy was playing with my daddyís slide rule, you know? [laughs] So that kind of gives you the idea of what kind of person... Iíve always been a reader and to this day I still like to try and find physics papers online and pull íem up and read íem, and see whatís going on. So thatís kind of what I am.

BR: Well good for you because it sounds like, from what we can gather, having talked to mutual colleagues such as Richard Hoagland...

JF: Right.

BR: ...and Jim Marrs, who we interviewed just this morning, is that youíre providing a real service in the information chain, as it were, in terms of providing researchers - who are trying their best to assemble a big picture - with some specific drilled-down components that you seem eminently qualified to have stumbled across. Or perhaps that sounds too clumsy. Actually, maybe youíve been going after them very deliberately ever since you realized that there was something to go after.

JF: Maybe.

BR: Do you think that that is correct?

JF: Maybe somewhere between the two. One of the things that always struck me... My academic background is actually in theology, and it always struck me that many of the methods that theologians use are very similar, in some respects, to methods that physicists use. And that may sound wildly contradictory to what most people would think.

But in looking at ancient texts, particularly philosophical texts, it always struck me that I was looking at a kind of a topological metaphor rather than specifically a metaphysical text. And the further I went back, the more apparent that metaphor became, to the point that it even became possible to notate certain concepts in text with the actual notation conventions of topology.

So I thought, well, you know: Thatís kind of wild! [laughs] So I didnít share it. Doing the Ph.D., I didnít share that idea with anybody, you know. But after I quit college teaching I began to look at texts that way, and to see... And I had done it privately. Iím not saying that, you know, all of a sudden I decided to do this. Iíd been doing it privately for a number of years and keeping little notebooks of it. But yeah. It was kind of half-accident, and kind of an on-going interest. So somewhere between the two.

BR: But thereís something that must have got you started specifically on the treasure-trail that led you to putting together a lot of the sub-jigsaw that was: What were the Nazis really doing before and during World War Two...

JF: Right.

BR: ...that nobody else seems to have really realized? What was it that led you in that direction? What were the first things you found?

JF: Well, the thing that always struck me that I donít think has... And I donít even include myself in this category. The thing that has always struck me about what kind of research the Nazis were doing is, on the one hand you have a definite esoteric, occult influence and interest that midwifes the Nazi Party into existence. You have a definite esoteric and occult influence at work after the Nazis take power.

And, you know, one of the things I like to point out is that the Nazi ďStateĒ with the SS and Heinrich Himmler, when he creates the Ahnenerbe Dienst [ed. note: Ahnenerbe Service] the so-called Ancestral Research Bureau...

If you go to the Nuremberg Tribunals and pull up the brief - you have to kind of dig for it but you can eventually find it - itís a short little statement, declaration, that establishes this thing. But one of the things that he puts in as one of the purposes for this department is that it is to investigate all of these areas for their potential military application. Okay?

So we have that influence at work. And then, on the other hand, as you know, being mathematics and physics background, you have during that period of - oh, say 1920 up to about 1931, í32 - you have this spate of publications in Germany of various Unified Field Theories: Kaluza, Einstein, Eddington, and so on and so forth. So you have that kind of scientific ferment at work.

And then of course you add Gabriel Kron into the mix, a Hungarian fellow, electrical engineer who says: Hey! You know, he wins a prize at the University of LiŤge in Belgium for a paper in which he says: Well, we electrical engineers notice all of these anomalies in large rotating electrical systems, and we can explain those anomalies by appealing to these higher-dimensional physics Unified Field Theories.

So in other words, if you stop and think of the implications of what he said, the technology of electrical circuitry, circa 1935, is producing anomalies only explainable by these higher-dimensional mathematical / physics theories. Heís telling you, in other words: These theories are engineer-able. They may be incomplete in the theoretical sense, but theyíre nonetheless engineer-able theories. And thatís an important statement.

BR: Which is highly significant because heís marrying two totally different worlds.

JF: Oh yes. Absolutely. Yes.

BR: Engineering in the practical; and the abstruse in the mathematical.

JF: Absolutely. Absolutely. And you know, one of the things that struck me... Iíve just acquired some of Kronís papers. I went out and bought one of his books, a little old Dover book publication. But what he does is, he takes the tensor calculus and uses it as a way of analyzing electrical machines.

BR: Now this is Einsteinís tensor calculus from his 1928 Unified Field paper?

JF: Yeah. This is... Right. And one of the things specifically that youíll notice in Kron - although he doesnít come right out and tell you: Iím now going to show you how torsion works - is he appeals to that very concept.

So youíve got these two very different things going on as kind of an intellectual ferment in Germany at the time. Youíve got the esoteric and occult interest, and you have this very abstruse theoretical and engineering interest.

Now, Iíve always suspected that there is some sort of connection between the two. And this is kind of what got me interested in the whole ďBellĒ story, because the department of the German government that is conducting all of this very exotic research is precisely the SS.

BR: What year are we talking about now?

JF: Thatís another good question. the Bell project itself, I think you can make a kind of a case, actually has its conceptual kind of proof-of-concept stage beginnings before the Nazis take power, and may have been as early as circa 1924 and í25.

BR: That early!?

JF: That early. The reason that I say that is in one of my books I reproduce this little, oh, kind of a two-column filler article that ran in the Frankfurter Allgameine Zeitung, I think it was, but it was written by none other than Dr. Walther Gerlach.

Now Walther Gerlach, you know, heís one of the most famous physicists at that time of history. Heís a Nobel Prize winner, you know... the famous Stern-Gerlach experiment.

I thought: Well whoa! Because what heís talking about in this article is the possibility of the transmutation of elements, specifically in regard to mercury-to-gold, and heís calling it a ďnew alchemy.Ē And that just really brought me up short. Because you know, this is, number one, before the discovery of nuclear fission by Otto Hahn. Okay? So heís got some very different concept in his head.

BR: Heís a smart guy, heĎs not a...

JF: [laughs] Heís a very smart guy! Yeah. This is not a second-stringer, you know. And when he uses this word alchemy, itís crystal clear. I even reproduced the original German article and then translated it, so you know that Iím not making this stuff up, folks.

BR: Itís the same word in German, isnít it?

JF: Oh yeah. Alchemy. You can see it right there in an article. So he writes this article and then, itís very clear, he makes a kind of a final little statement, that, you know: This should be investigated further and to do so itís going to - hint, hint - require a lot of money. [laughs] So this is kind of the typical scientistís appeal to the government. All right?

BR: Okay.

JF: Well, the reason I think that the project may have begun at this time is because it is precisely Dr. Walther Gerlach who is the project head of the Bellfor the Nazis.

BR: Okay. Now, Joe, I wonder if I could stop you here, because what weíve got here is weíve got the first ten minutes of whatís sounding like a really interesting movie where [Farrell laughs] no oneís quite sure whatís going on here...

JF: Yeah.

BR: ...but theyíre interested.

JF: Okay.

BR: Now, for our viewers, Okay? Weíve talked about Einstein; tensor calculus - something that sounds very abstrusely mathematical that...

JF: It is! [laughs]

BR: one will understand; the Nazis; and something called the Bell. So whatís the plot-line here? Why should anyone...

JF: Pay attention to this?

BR: about this extraordinary story?

JF: All right. Very simple. Itís my belief... Just to give you kind of a very short Cliff Notes answer, itís my belief, number one, that the Nazi atom bomb project was successful. Now, what Iím going to do is simply ask your viewers to accept that as kind of a ďgivenĒ for the sake of argument so that I can kind of set the context. Okay?

If you look at the project classification of the Bell, the Nazis classified it as kriegsentscheidend - [ed. note: war decisive]. In other words, within the classification system of the Third Reich, the Bell was classified absolutely uniquely and at the very pinnacle of the system, and it is the ONLY project in Nazi Germany to be given that specific classification. In other words, higher than the atom bomb. Okay?

So in other words, to the Nazis the atom bomb is, you know, already kind of ďold stuff.Ē [laughs] Okay? So that gives an indicator of what the significance is. But if you look at the physics that theyíre trying to investigate, I believe theyíre investigating it for three things - for the purposes of achieving three things.

Number one, they want to free Germany from energy dependence on foreign powers and foreign oil. So, in other words, theyíre investigating the so-called ďzero pointĒ energy. Okay?

Number two, the same sort of physics they have seen is kind of a gateway or window into advanced field propulsion, or antigravity if you want to call it that.

And the third thing of course, Nazis being Nazis, is that they want to engineer this physics for a weapon. And of course weíre dealing now with the physics that, again, can engineer the fabric of space-time, locally.

BR: Okay. Now, just once again to summarize this before we go into even more detail.

JF: Sure.

BR: What youíre referring to here is, youíve picked up the research line that was started by...

JF: Igor Witkowski.

BR: ...Nick Cook and Igor Witkowski. This thing that seems to have been called... well, for lack of a better word The Nazi Bell. We donít know what they called it, do we?

JF: Well, actually they did call it Die Glocke.

BR: Die Glocke.

JF: And they had another nickname for it: Der Bienenstock - the beehive...

BR: The beehive.

JF: ...because of the sound it made. But one of the actual project code names was Projekt Cronos, or Project Time. Now, many people leap to the conclusion that well, theyíre trying to build a time machine. Well, no. Thatís... Time is involved because, again, youíre trying to use torsion to tap into the ability to manipulate the fabric of space-time.

BR: Whatís torsion?

JF: All right. Torsion. The way I like to illustrate it very simply is: If you take a soda can and empty the soda out of it and then wring it like a dishrag, youíve got that counter-rotating motion, and itís going to spiral and fold and pleat that can, and then draw the ends of the can closer together. So that kind of is my simplistic illustration of what torsion does. And the can itself would represent space-time, okay?

Now, what theyíre doing... I think ultimately, for the Nazis, the purpose of this is they want to weaponize it. And of course - and I say this over and over again in my interviews - if youíre dealing with a technology that has the potential to engineer space-time, that means that if you weaponize that, potentially you have a weapon that would make a hydrogen bomb look like a firecracker.

Itís truly planet-busting stuff if youíve got the proper engineering behind it and, you know, develop appropriate power systems and so on. Which again... one and the same thing will lead to zero-point energy, so thereís your power, [laughs] you know?

BR: And thereíre some very smart scientists in that time.

JF: Oh yes! Absolutely.

BR: One might actually say ďthe worldís finestĒ, would you say?

JF: I would say so. And again, you know, this is why I kind of prefaced my remarks by mentioning the atom bomb, because the kind of the post-war Allied legend, as I like to call it, is of course the Germans were a bunch of nuclear bunglers, you know. And they didnít have enough manpower. And they didnít have enough money, you know, and all of this happy nonsense that you hear in the textbooks.

Well, to me this story really doesnít make much sense. And youíre right. Theyíve got Heisenberg. Theyíve got Hartek. I mean, these people are not second-stringers at all. So yeah, what the Germans are doing... And I want to emphasize here the importance of why Nazism would be the ideological cauldron for this, because Nazism of course had banned ďJewish physicsĒ. In other words: Relativity.


And they even had ideological difficulties with aspects of quantum mechanics because it was too statistical. It was too probabilistic. It wasnít deterministic enough for some of the Nazi ideologues.

But what is implied by this in the standard history is that within Nazi Germany you have an absolute stamping out of the scientific method and a dead-ending of physics. But I think if you look now, a hundred years after Relativity, we see precisely that physics has dead-ended. We have this kind of dogma in place now.

What I think Nazism really did is it freed those people in a certain way to think outside the box, and all of that outside-the-box thinking took place inside the confines of the SS. And the signal event that kicks all this loose now in modern times - the reason weíre finding out about it - is precisely German Reunification. Why?

BR: Right.

JF: Because when the Eastern Zone is basically annexed in a shotgun wedding by West Germany... and thatís exactly how I would describe it. When that happens, all of those old SS installations in the Eastern Zone - some of which the Soviets didnít even get into, you know. The SS blew them up and the Soviets never bothered to go into them. The Germans went back in there and looked at all this stuff, and it wasnít showing up on any radar screen connected with rockets or jet aircraft or poison gas, you know, any of the other stuff that they were doing. And so they began to wonder: Well, whatís going on here?

And then of course Igor finds that very strange ďhengeĒ-like structure there in Ludwikowice, I think in Poland, which used to be Ludwigsdorf, and heís wondering: What is this? [laughs] You know? Why is this here?

And of course this kicks loose the spate of declassification. This kicks loose a bunch of people coming forward from the old Eastern Zone, now able to talk about what they saw, what they observed. So this has kicked loose a fantastic amount of information.

BR: Itís very interesting what you are saying about the... Let me rephrase what youíre saying: The crucible of the stateís support and the stateís agenda was a perfect support system for a scientist who wanted the funding and the motivation...

JF: And to think outside the box.

BR: ...and all the resources to go and play with his toys and to do what all scientists really want to do, which is to invent something wild...

JF: [laughs] Yes! Exactly!

BR: ...that works.

JF: Thatís exactly right.

BR: And what some of our listeners will already be thinking is, like... theyíll be thinking: Wait a minute! This is whatís happening in Los Alamos and Hughes and Sandia and Bell Labs right now.

JF: Uh huh! Yes. Thatís right. Yes!

BR: At a different time and in a different Reich - [Farrell laughs] - which is what Jim Marrs would say.

JF: Yeah. I wouldnít have much of an argument with him either! [laughs]

BR: But what I also think youíre saying, at the risk of putting words into your mouth, is that if we want to understand that stuff that I just mentioned, then we need to go back to exactly this paper trail that youíve been following, because what weíre seeing nowadays is the progeny of that. Is that correct?

JF: Yeah. Nazi Germany is, you know, itís really a weird state when you examine the scientific implications of it because...

Let me go back to that SS department that Himmler sets up. Okay, youíre going to go out there and youíre going to research the Aryan heritage - if we look at the Nazi state and we go back to what Himmler sets up with this department - and he says: All right. Go out and investigate all of the aspects of the ancient Aryan heritage. But the mission brief is broad enough that he gives them.

Basically you have a department of the Nazi state created specifically for the purpose to investigate the esoteric, the occult, the hermetic, whatever you want to call all of this ancient lore, okay? For the specific purpose of military application.

BR: This again sounds eerily reminiscent of what we hear coming out of certain places in America right now.

JF: Yeah! Right. But here, what Iím emphasizing here, and what I want to kind of tie into what you said, is that this is the first time in modern history that a major world power has invested serious financial and personnel resources to do this. And itís very, very clear, you know, in Nazi Germanyís case. So we have this cauldron, this crucible that, you know...

I take kind of almost diametrically the opposite tack that a standard academic historian would give you of this Aryan physics. We know what the failures are. I mean, theyíre palpable. Theyíre blatant. But the reason we donít know about the successes, and the reason that weíre only hearing about them now, is not only German Reunification but precisely because that crucible was in the SS. It was all classified. It was also deeply black.

But yeah, by freeing them from so-called ďJewish physicsĒ, what theyíre really saying is: We want you to think outside the box. We want you to come up with a completely different paradigm of physics. And if itís engineer-able, [claps hands] go do it.

BR: Okay. Now, interestingly enough, just last week we spoke with Peter Levenda. Do you know him and his work?

JF: Oh yes. Yeah. I know Peter.

BR: We were delighted to talk with him and, of course, heís somebody who...

JF: Oh yes.

BR: a document researcher like yourself. And he described to us how he went to the very famous archivist, Dr. Wolfe...

JF: Okay. Yes.

BR: ...who showed him the archives of the SS Ahnenerbe.

JF: Oh boy! [laughs]

BR: And his words were that his jaw dropped. He never knew such a thing existed. Itís really interesting to us that youíve been down that same rabbit-hole. And what Iíd love to ask you about - if this doesnít deviate from your thought-line here - is: What is the connection between this hard, but brilliant and out-of-the-box physics, with the occult?

JF: I think... Again, if you go back to the remarks I began with, I think if you go far enough back and look at certain types of texts, for example, the Hermetica, okay? And read them without the standard academic approach with metaphysics eyeglasses on, and read them rather as a topologist - as a mathematician - would read these texts, or as even a materials engineer, you know, might read these texts, what pops out of these things is a profound metaphor of a physical medium that creates information, and thatís a very modern idea.


In fact, itís so modern, you know, it starts popping up in the Soviet Union in the 1970s and begins to kind of spread from there. All of this stuff is popping out of the Soviet Union.

So in other words, way back when - if we go back to the Hermetica - here weíre dealing with a text approximately, oh give or take, you know, 2,000 years old, so in others words... But itís an Egyptian text even though itís written in Greek. Its provenance is clearly Egyptian, okay? So this is very old and yet it contains this profoundly sophisticated physics metaphor.

Thatís what really popped out at me, you know, when I was reading these texts. It wasnít that I was supposed to be looking and seeing Platonic Universals, you know, the chair-of-all-chairs and the horse-of-all-horses. No. None of that was what was popping out at me. What Platoís talking about is topology. Heís talking about common surfaces with common forms, okay? So Iím looking at this, and then Iím looking at the Nazis, and theyíre coming up with these theories essentially in the í20s and í30s that are looking at the physical medium as an engineer-able reality. In other words, in a certain sense, as an information-creating medium. So... And again, the key to creating stable information is rotation, okay? Torsion, and so on and so forth.

So Iím thinking: Well, this appears to be precisely what we see going on with this Bell project. They are somehow pursuing this idea of physics. And one of the things that leapt out at me that kind of made this connection very clear is...

In my book, The Philosopherís Stone, I refer to a fellow by the name of ďHimmlerís RasputinĒ - if you can imagine [laughs] Heinrich Himmler having a personal Rasputin! Well this guyís name is Karl Maria Wiligut. Okay? He has a number of aliases that he wrote esoteric treatises under. But his basic conception is that the whole universe arises out of a tension between two counter-rotating spirals which create the ďWorld EggĒ. Okay?

And when I saw that I thought: Oh boy! Because of course in the Bell, you know - which I rationalize as basically a kind of hyper-dimensional torsion physics device - youíve got these two counter-rotating drums into which theyíre putting this high-density liquid, which I think may have even incorporated an isomer as one of its components. And of course an isomer is one of these high-spin isotopes, that if you de-excite it, it will release massive amounts of energy.

Well, youíve got these two counter-rotating drums, and Iím thinking: Well, hereís the physics that theyíre doing, and weíve got these two counter-rotating things. And over here, Himmlerís Rasputin is saying: Well, this is all coming out of two counter-rotating systems. You know? So I think, clearly, you had an ideological culture in the SS that, rather than inhibiting scientific progress, really kind of forced them to pursue all of this higher-dimensional physics.

BR: It actually gave them an inspirational boost.

JF: Yes. Yeah, exactly. And, you know, the kind of... the final nail in the coffin, as far as Iím concerned is, if you look at the swastika itself, you know, and view that as not so much the corporate logo of the Nazi Party but as an ideogram of this whole physics idea...

BR: It looks like a vector diagram.

JF: Yeah. It looks like a vector diagram. Exactly! You know, youíve got a subsystem of rotation, youíve got a subsystem of stress, and you throw them together and twist that thing, and thereís your parallel transports in the tensor calculus... and voila, you know, [laughs] youíre on your way.

Kerry Cassidy (KC): In a sense, that symbol came out of India.

JF: Oh sure. Yeah.

KC: They actually went back to the original meaning of the symbol, and picked up on it because it was supposed to have been...

JF: Yes. Bingo. Bingo! Exactly! And, you know, if you kind of can imagine Walther Gerlach being challenged, you know. Letís assume the projectís underway when the Nazis take power. Gerlach got his wish. He got funding from the Weimar government, and heís doing his spin experiments, okay? He was fascinated with spin and magnetic resonance and gravitation, you know. He corresponded with the Austrian physicist, Thirring. You know, the Lense-Thirring Effect. Satellite drag and all this, you know. This was his bag.

So imagine the Nazis coming in and saying: Well, Professor Doktor Gerlach, weíre going to shut your project down. It looks too suspicious to us. Itís dealing in areas we donít want to deal with. Itís not part of our ideology. Well, all Gerlach has to do is say: Herr Himmler, itís right there on your armband. Heís already sold them, in a certain sense! [Bill laughs]

And youíre right. Because the other thing about the Bell that I should mention in this context with India is that this Xerum 525 that theyíre putting inside this device and spinning up... Well, number one, itís a liquid. Number two, itís of heavy density. Number three, itís of a kind of a maroonish-violet color, okay? Very heavy.

So Iím thinking: A liquid metal. Mercury. So probably mercury is one thing. And thereís your connection to India. Because of course as you know, in the Vimana texts you have references to mercury vortexes. And, just to kind of make a final nail in the coffin, mercuryís kind of an ideal candidate if youíre going to use plasmas in this thing.

And again, you know, you have astrophysicists in Germany - Houtermans - looking at the sun thinking: Okay, weíve got nuclear fusion up there. And theyíve already noticed the sun rotates but the plasma is rotating at different velocities, so youíve got this ďdifferential rotationĒ they call it, but thatís just a fancy word for, you know, itís rotating at different velocities. And theyíre putting all this together in this device.

KC: What about the Vimanas? You know, what was in essence flying saucers way back when? Do you think that they might have gotten the idea there?

JF: From those ancient texts? Let me put it this way: I donít think itís even necessary to say that that might have been a motivation. However, within the culture of the SS that is conducting this research, youíre going to have one department, the Ahnenerbe, reading these texts and taking them to the scientists to analyze. And the scientists are going to look at these things and say: Oh, isnít that interesting?

Because over here Professor Doctor Gerlach has been studying this. He won a Nobel Prize for examining aspects of this type of physics, and heís been investigating and researching ever since. And theyíre putting these two things together. I think thatís whatís happening in Nazi Germany. Theyíre doing the first attempt, in a certain sense, to go back at these ancient texts and say they contain a scientific metaphor, and therefore a technology. And we have these papers now that we can see this. Letís try and reconstruct it.

This is a vital thing because that means they have also seen - and this is, again, a part of Nazi ideological belief - that there was a very sophisticated ancient civilization. So in another sense then, yeah, theyíre trying to reconstruct this stuff. In that sense theyíre kind of a resurrection of Atlantis.

BR: Hmm.

KC: Then are they looking at the Egyptian pyramids and the Sumerian sealsÖ

JF: Theyíre looking at everything. [laughs]

KC: Öand theyíre getting all kinds of clues.

JF: Oh yeah! Absolutely they are, you knowÖ

BR: Because at exactly the same time as this they were mounting expeditions all over the world to try and get hold ofÖ

JF: Oh yes.

BR: Öanything they could get a hold of.

JF: Oh yes.

BR: That would give them clues to all of this, right?

JF: Well, in this regard, this idea of an ancient civilization in trying to get clues into it; youíre familiar with the Ď38-39 Schafer expedition to Tibet.

BR: Yes.

JF: Okay. Well, Himmler was a personal sponsor of this. What I find interesting is that, in spite of the heavy influence of the British Raj in Tibet, the Nazis not only were able to gain entry into the Potala from the regions. They came out of Tibet with an entire copy - as Peter Levendaís research establishes - an entire copy of the Kangschur; this ancient Tibetan epic which is supposed to be about this very sophisticated ancient civilization. And they make it back to Germany with this.

BR: And they knew its importance.

JF: Oh yes absolutely they did, absolutely they did.

KC: So some of their technology could have come from Tibet as well?

JF: I think some of their technology has to... Some of their thinking has to come from looking at these texts and looking at all of these very abstruse ideas in physics and putting them together because they fit so snuggly at places at times that it really is astonishing. You know, I didnít dare write about any of this when I was a professor. [laughs] Thatís why I wait until after I get out of there. Now Iíll write it down.

BR: The least one can say about it is that this is all the work of intuitive genius.

JF: Yes, IÖ

BR: Thatís the least one can say.

JF: Thatís the least that one can say. And again, the fact that we have an organized department of the government - and a secret one at that - doing this, that means itís organized.

BR: Yup!

JF: And that, to me, implies that - as youíre implying - that to me indicates that there is some deliberation being taken in thinking and rationalizing all of this out.

BR: Okay. Now let me just dispose of one question here that our viewers will want me to ask.

JF: Sure. [laughs]

BR: Actually, and secretly, I want to ask it myself too. This is the claimed inference of the Vril Society; those young girls who were channeling, remote viewing, accessing clairvoyant information - whatever you want to call it.

JF: Okay.

BR: Thatís been much vauntedÖ

JF: Yes.

BR: Öby theorists who claim that they were accessing information that may have come from other realms or other planets or whatever.

JF: Right.

BR: Whatís your take on that?

JF: I donít base my analysis of the Bell Project, or anything like that, on channeled information or on Neo-Nazi sources. My problem with this story is precisely those two things. That it comes, first of all, from a source that is anecdotal and, secondly, that the ultimate source thatís putting it out has some very shady kind of Neo-Nazi ties, okay?

And thereís no other corroboration of it other than the fact that we know that something called the Vril Society did exist, and we know it because it was the German rocket scientist Willy Ley that first mentioned it when he came over to this country to escape the Nazis.

BR: Mm-hm.

JF: Okay. So we know that that society existed. We donít know much about it. They did publish a small thin little brochure in Berlin prior to the war. I havenít been able to get a hold of it. I donít know what itís contents are. So, as far as Iím concerned, this is a story that, number one, has kind of a suspect origin and, number two, I havenít been able to find anything other than this story to corroborate that the Nazis were doing this.

I do know that the Ahnenerbe is doing research that we would now consider paranormal or psychic or remote viewing or what have you. Certainly they were. So youíve got a general context in which something like that might have taken place, but they are alleging that this took place toward the end - in fact in some cases during World War One and toward the end of World War One - long before the Nazis are even on the scene.

BR: I thought it was in the twenties.

JF: No. I think one of these was 1916 and another one was in 19 - and again, I may be mistaken - 1919 I think, close to Berchtesgarten, which is another unusual little coincidence [laughs] in this story, but...

KC: But did you investigate the remote viewing, like the origins of remote viewing, in the NaziÖ

JF: No, no I havenít. Thatís an aspect of the story I think again that is going to come out eventually. The problem now is getting... There are massive amounts of Ahnenerbe documents in the US national archives, but many of them are still unavailable, so the problem is being able to tell a complete story. You see, thatís the whole problem here. Itís not that I donít think that there is one but right now all we have with the Vril Society is a kind of a general kind of corroboration of a context.

BR: Yes. And presumably youíre also sort of invoking Occamís Razor by saying itís not necessary toÖ

JF: To go there.

BR: I understand that.

JF: Exactly. Itís not necessary because you have another occult influence at work already within the SS that has a specifically detailed conceptual relationship to the physics being investigated with the Bell and thatís this guy Wiligut.

BR: Yeah.

JF: Right. So you really donít even need to go there. It would be kind of nice icing on the cake, you know, if they figured out: Well, consciousness plays a role in this too and weíre going to investigate that. Well if theyíre rationalizing things to that extent, yeah, then weíre in even deeper trouble. [laughs]

BR: Okay. Now after all those fascinating set-upsÖ

JF: Okay. [laughs]

BR: Öour viewers here, who are thinking this sounds like a detective story; this sounds like Columbo...

JF: Or a bad Oliver B movie. [laughs]

BR: What was the Bell? What were they trying to do? And what is known what is not known what is theorized and why is this important?

JF: Okay, let me give you the basic data points and then Iíll give you how I kind of rationalize them. My rationalization of it is a bit different that Igor Witkowski and Nick Cook although I kind of build on some aspects of their analysis.

First of all itís a device, itís bell shaped, it stands about twelve to fifteen feet high, nine to twelve feet wide. Itís either cased in a kind of a ceramic metal or just plain old ceramic. Itís got heavy duty electrical port cable - electrical cabling ports - around the device.

Inside the device there are two counter rotating drums - and I want to be clear here. The data that we have does not specify the internal configuration of those drums within the Bell. These two counter rotating drums had a 'serum' - this Xerum 525 (see Hunt for Zero Point) I mentioned earlier - the heavy maroonish-red, probably mercury, compound.

It is cryogenically cooled either by liquid oxygen or liquid nitrogen and it is close to an electrical power plant and sounds like a beehive Okay? The electrical power plant is kind of to put an hyperbole on it near yards away from the installations that the Bell is being tested in all right?

BR: The kind of hum you get from a high voltage generator.

JF: Yes. Okay. Now letís put all these things... Those are the data points, and theÖ

BR: And this is known how?

JF: This is known by an SS general by the name of Jakob Sporrenberg who was part of this project because he was the general that was tasked, at the end of the war, to go in and murder sixty of the scientists involved with the project.

BR: Hm.

JF: In other words the Nazis want to keep this thing absolutely quiet.

BR: I didnít know that.

JF: Oh yeah, thatís how all this comes out. Heís tried for that crime by a Polish War Crimes Tribunal because, of course, Poland slid westward and took over parts of Pomeranian Silesia that were formerly German provinces. And the Bell was tested in that part of Germany that then became Poland after the war.

So Poland assumed jurisdiction over this man for that crime and we know it by the affidavit that he gave at that war crimes trial, okay? But itís important again to realize, itís after the collapse of the iron curtain, itís after the collapse of the east German state and basically the shotgun wedding that was had in 1989, that all of this comes out.

Now, Sporrenberg also describes the effect of the device on plants. Plants exposed to the field of this thing when it was operating would decay to a kind of a brownish grey goo within a matter of either hours or weeks, this would vary.

BR: Theyíd come apart.

JF: Yes. Theyíd just literally fall apart, just blugh, and they would do so without putrefaction. The first time it was tested apparently the Germans had not done something correctly and seven of the original scientists of the project were killed when it was tested the first time. Later on, apparently, they learned how to kind of control some of these deadly effects a little bit more reasonably.

But those are the data points. And one little final bit of information - a final bit of data point... When it was tested underground it had to be tested in a room lined with ceramic bricks over which were placed rubber mats. After each test concentration camp victims would come in, remove the rubber mats, burn the mats and then scrub down the ceramic bricks with brine - okay? That had to be done for some reason after each test.

BR: Radioactivity?

JF: Yes I think so, I think so. Again... and Iím mentioning that because itís a crucial data point. Then, when it was tested outside, it was tested apparently inside this henge-like structure that is near all of these strange installations with this electrical power plant right there.

This henge stood in a kind of a basin - a pool - it looks like, that would have contained some sort of liquid. Around the perimeter of this pool there are... And you can see this on the History Channel documentary with Nick Cook. Igor takes Nick down into this structure and you can see these entry ports for all of this heavy duty electrical cabling, okay?

Apparently, when tested at night, these concentration camp inmates described this barrel-like thing that would glow a pale blue glow and it would rise above the tree line and kind of sit there and then it would fall back down; lower back down.

So those are our data points. I donít think that the dimensions of the device, at this point in my research, are functionally significant so letís turn to the cryogenic cooling, okay? Weíre dealing already we know with a device that is using these two counter rotating cylinders, and I suspect that their centrifuge isotope technology had something to do with this, because theyíre using ultra high mechanical rotation.

In other words, this is a precision machine, and itís being cryogenically cooled. And the first thing that I think of is super-conductivity, you know. Again, high spin system, little resistance. Itís a kind of a self contained little bubble of its own...

BR: Was superconductivity understood in the physics of that time?

JF: Oh yeah. Sure. Then the next thing is we have this mysterious substance which theyíre putting into these cylinders and spinning at high speed. I think that the presence of this power plant and the sound of the Bell, as a beehive, indicates that this whole thing was electrically pulsed with extremely high voltage direct current electricity.

And that the drums were set up - and Igor agrees with me here; this is his analysis that Iím borrowing from - that you have a cathode and an anode and this will arc to the centre. And as this stuff is spinning and cohering along the same plane of rotation and being pulsed, electrically pulsed, itís going to drive it inward, create little plasmoids, and youíre going to get even more spin out of this thing.

So, in other words, the way Iím rationalizing the device, ultimately, is they are attempting to maximize by every possible means this extreme torsion shear effect. This is exactly what they are going after. They are trying to figure out if they can manipulate and engineer the fabric of space-time.

BR: With what end?

JF: To what end, again, I think thereís these three purposes in mind: the Bell is part of a... The departmental oversight, letís say, of the Bell is three things.

First, you have some attachment to the Forschung Inviclum Inpatento, which is a super secret SS entity that is pulling every patent application within the Third Reich, and later occupied Europe, that has national security implications.

Number two, itís under an entity called SS Entwicklungstelle vier which means Development Area Four. The mission brief of that department is to make Germany energy independent and itís that department that you have investigating things like controlled fusion, zero point energy, and so on and so forth. So itís attached to that department.

Then the final department that itís attached to is General Hans Kammler and his think tank down in the Pils in Czechoslovakia in the Scotia Munitions Works. And the mission brief of that department of the SS is to brainstorm its way from first generation to second and third and fourth generations - and hereís the key - to work out the necessary steps in the technology tree, to get from one to the other, and then to do it. Okay?

BR: Mm-hm.

JF: So the Bell is connected with all these departments and what this suggests to me, given the physics involved here, is that theyíre trying to create a prototype technology. And I want to emphasize this: This thing is not a UFO, it is not itself a weapon and it is not itself a zero point energy device.

Itís a prototype technology, or a gateway technology, that they are using in developing to investigate each of those three areas. That I think is what you have with this project. But I think the results were significant enough to them, by 1944, that they give it this extreme classification - kriegsentscheidend - war decisive.

So theyíre already seeing the military potential of this thing. This is a field propulsion potential here of just extraordinary capability. And this is a weapon potential here of just extraordinary capability, but itís a kind of a unified technology.

BR: Now...

KC: It also sounds like itís a time machine. I mean, it sounds like itís creating what Jodie Foster entered, in a sense, in Contact.

JF: Right. I use the term ďtime dilationĒ here, and I donít want relativistic associations, but I donít want people to think that this is a device that can be used as a practical device for time travel - going backward or forward into the future. But the field effects here on plants, I think, are key.

And another thing I should mention is: I think one of the purposes of this 'Xerum' and the use of probably some isotope of mercury and nuclear isomers was precisely the fact that, if they were able to achieve a severe time dilation effect, the way youíre going to try and measure it is precisely by changes in radioactive decay, okay?

BR: [inaudible]

JF: Yes. So I think this is yet another reason theyíre spinning this stuff up and pulsing it. Itís kind of at one and the same time the fuel of the device and the measurement of what theyíre getting out of it.

KC: But is it possible, two thingsÖ

JF: Mm hm.

KC: Öone, that if in spinning which itís creating a portal, in essence, itís creating a torsion field aroundÖ

JF: Yes. Itís creating this ďtwisted canĒ effect.

KC: But youíre saying it affected plants on the outside of it.

JF: Yes.

KC: Is there any chance that on the inside you wouldnít have the same effect?

JF: Good question. To my knowledge - and I think Igor Witkowski would probably back me up here. To my knowledge there is no evidence that this device was constructed in such a way that you could put people into it, or plants or animals or what have you into this device. Now, that doesnít mean that...

Letís put ourselves in the Nazi shoes for a moment and kind of speculate. If by, say 1942/43 when it is very clear from the documents that Igor has gathered, they have been successful enough with this project even to split it into the physics component and the medical component, okay? Which indicates - Igor thinks (and I think that heís quite right here) - that the Nazis have decided: Okay. Weíre far enough along we need to learn how to limit the effects of this stuff on living beings.

If this is the case, then thereís nothing to prevent the Nazis from building or modifying that machine, building another one, so that they can do precisely that. And that would be a logical step for them to take. But, as of yet, we donít have any hard evidence that they did this. Thatís all Iím saying. So, yes. It has a field around it where the effects are quite deadly.

BR: Now, as a leapÖ

JF: Sure.

BR: Öand one that some of our viewers may already have been making.

JF: Uh-huh.

BR: If, to mirror what you said at the start of our conversation when you said: Well, letís assume that the Germans have been successful in establishing some degree of nuclear weapon technology.

JF: Right.

BR: Letís suppose that the Americans had done something in the Montauk project.

JF: Okay.

BR: As itís popularly been...

JF: Portrayed.

BR: ...portrayed as some kind of a Star Gate device that involves huge amounts of electrical power, a lot of trial and error experimentation...

JF: Uh-huh.

BR: ...and even the idea, you know - heaven forbid - that children picked up off the streets were used as a means of trying to push them into this thing to see if they would survive the journey.

JF: Right.

BR: Is this a ridiculous leap in your mind or is this something that youíre willing to entertain, theoretically, that thereís the connection here. As this technologyÖ.

JF: Between the Bell and Montauk?

BR: Well, yes. I mean... Because, as this conversation continues, I want your take on what happened to this technology after the war. The significance of Kammler...

JF: Right.

BR: ...and what happened to him. [Farrell laughs] What happened to this technology and the deals that may have been made?

JF: Right.

BR: Öand whoever, and where it is now. What happened to it?

JF: Okay.

BR: This is not the kind of thing thatís just abandoned, is it a failed project?

JF: No-no. [laughs]

BR: Certainly not. There are too many smart people...

JF: Oh, yes!

BR: ...who are too interested in keeping on playing with this incredible toy.

JF: Okay, well let me dispense with Montauk. That is not a project that I have investigated deeply, Okay? Iíve investigated enough to know that thereís a lot of (if I can use the expression) wacky stuff out there and I just donít want to go there. Thereís been really only one good book about it, in my estimation, and I canít even recall the title of it.

From some of the descriptions of the project: Yeah, it appears that theyíre kind of investigating similar things, but not really. So I donít make a connection between the Bell and Montauk at all in my mind intuitively. It just has too many... itís got too many elements like the Vril society channeling all this information and thatís where we are getting this science. Itís got too much of that for me.

But as for where does the Bell go. The way I kind of outline in my books it appears to me that Martin Bormann is the key figure here. And in each and every case that we see these German scientists surrendering to the Allies, letís give the example of the rocket scientists, we in the United States get sort of the crŤme de la crŤme, Okay? As to where the Bell goes. In my opinion Martin Bormann sees to it that the Allies and the Soviet Union get more or less an equal division of the technological spoils.

He sees to it, according to my research, that the United States gets crucial atom bomb components. Fissile U235, infrared proximity fuses that are a nice handy thing to have around when you are trying to detonate plutonium cores, all of this technology he sees to it that the United States gets. He sees to it that the Soviet Union gets a crucial Nazi scientist that had developed certain isotope enrichment technologies.

BR: Who was that?

JF: Baron Manfred from Arjona, who, of course, used cyclotrons and mass spectrometers just like Lawrence did over here. So this goes to the Soviet Union - oops! - along with the centrifuge technology. So heís seeing to it that all of this technology is being equally divided.

But if youíre going to have a post war, extra-territorial Nazi state, so to speak, and itís going to have organization, and if you are going to have an ongoing research project, thereís two things you canít have: You canít have atom bombs because thatís going to require large enrichment plants, of course thatís going to be an easy target. You canít have large rocket gantries you are going to need a project that is truly sensational and would pay massive dividends and yet be a project that you could much easier keep secret, okay? And thatís the Bell.

BR: Okay.

JF: So in other words, what Iím telling you is, the Allies and the Soviet Union get the jets, the rockets, the infrared sights, the computers, the semi-conductor chips, you know, all of this stuff. But the project that was classified war decisive the Naziís keep to themselves.

In my research I think that, definitely, a case can be made that the post war fusion project that was taking place in Juan Peronís Argentina, is really nothing more than a continuation of certain aspects of this Bell project.


In other words, with all of those Nazis located in Argentina, including  - as I make a case in my books - Martin Bormann himself. You have the boss, in other words, right there in the area where this secret Argentine project is being conducted.

So, in other words, Peron is not really the one that is in control of this. Itís Bormann. Heís the financier, okay? So you have the Bell not going to the West, not going to the Soviet Union, you have it going to Argentina. Now, you mentioned Kammler...

KC: Iím sorry, but I have to ask...

JF: Sure.

KC: Donít you think thereís a very good chance that what was going on in Argentina was under the purview of the United States? Because a lot of the head Nazis did go to the United States, wouldnít you say?

JF: Well, there are Nazis that go here but the important ones, no. And the reason I say that is that... If you go back to my book SS Brotherhood of the Bell, I pick up on something that Igor Witkovsky very explicitly mentions in his book, and that is that it appears that the United States was desperately trying to reconstruct the personnel team of the Bell. In other words, we didnít get the people, and if weíre trying to reconstruct the personnel team, that means we didnít get the documents from the project and probably we didnít get the device.

If we had the device we probably wouldnít have needed much of the personnel. So we really didnít get much of anything. Iíve only been able to identify two Bell scientists that made it to this country. One was, incidentally, Dr. Hubertus Strughold who was involved in the medical aspect of the project. The other one was a fellow by the name of Dr. Kurt Debus.

Now this guy is an interesting character because he apparently was one of these top scientists because he was the man that designed the power plant for the Bell. Now hereís why heís significant. I have a picture of him in SS Brotherhood of the Bell and heís standing right next to Dr. Wernher Von Braun [laughs] at NASA and youíre nodding your head and smiling, you know where this is going!

Heís standing right next to Wernher Von Braun at NASA, and they are kind of pointing off to something in the distance like that, and heís a senior flight director for the Apollo program at Cape Canaveral. So in other words, as an administrator, heís got his hands in all the NASA pies. But the man isnít even a rocket scientist. Heís an electrical engineer.

BR: Itís really weird, isnít it?

JF: Well, itís so weird [laughs] to go there where you want me to go. Itís so weird that I happen to think that this indicates that thereís an alternative technology in play here.

BR: Okay.

JF: In the Apollo program.

BR: Yup! Let me inject a little anecdote that may make you smile. This is a personal anecdote, and I donít even think Kerryís heard this one. My father was a facial recognition expert who worked with the British home office.

JF: Okay.

BR: He... Among many things, he invented Photofit, the facial recognition system used to catch crooks.

JF: Okay.

BR: And Identi-kit, which preceded it, was an idea that was stolen from him.

JF: Right.

BR: And every now and then the British home office would consult him with a special request. And I remember sitting around the kitchen table, in the 1970ís when I was in my mid-twenties, and my father looking at pictures of Martin BormannÖ

JF: [laughs] Oh boy.

BR: Öand he had been approached by the British home office who had some pictures of an old man that had been sent to them either from Brazil or Argentina, and I cannot remember which, (and my father is now no longer with us) and my father was being tasked to state whether or not this man, that had been found in the 1970ís, was Martin Bormann and my father said: Yes it absolutely was. So, how about that for a little anecdote?

JF: Yeah, well. [laughs] Iíve got an anecdote of my own. Itís not my personal anecdote but I mention in my
Nazi International book that the CBS journalist Paul Manning, that was a close associate of Ed Murrow, you know, the very famous journalist that was in the UK during the blitz and later on TV.

Well, Manning wrote a book. This was after Ladislas Farago had come out with his book about Martin Bormann, the Fourth Reich and all that stuff. Well Manning, I think, in a certain sense, was kind of miffed at the way they had treated a fellow journalist, and he wrote a book called Martin Bormann: Nazi in Exile. And he basically verified that the documents that Farago had used in his book were real. They were legit, okay?

Well he found something else. [laughs] He found that Martin Bormann - I think around 1967 - had cashed a check [laughs] at Manufacturers Hanover and Chase Manhattan Bank. It was cleared through Deutsche Bank in Buenos Aires in Argentina, and the check had been cashed over his own signature. [laughs]

BR: Incredible. [Farrell laughs] Amazing.

KC: I donít understand. I mean, you can back off the link between this - I donít know how to say his name - the guy in FloridaÖ

JF: Debus. Kurt Debus.

KC: ÖDebus. Okay, and Bormann. In other words youíre, in essence, saying they no longer spoke?

JF: Oh no, no, no! Iím not backing off that link at all. Quite the contrary. No. Iím very much in agreement with Richard Hoagland and Mike Bara that, you know, in Dark Mission they outlined the case that, by the time of these late Apollo missions, itís the Nazis that are the most significant influence inside of NASA.

No, quite the contrary. In fact, one of the things I try and mention in SS Brotherhood of The Bell, is that our early monitoring of these German scientists, that were over here as part of our missile program and then the early space program, discovered that there seemed to be a sort of chain of command between all of these Nazis still in existence, and that they even had mail drops.

And they were driving these fancy cars and getting money from they-knew-not-where. That it wasnít coming from a NASA scientist salary. They were driving around [laughs] in these Mercedes cars but nothing was ever done about it. Thatís, to me, whatís suspicious because yeah, that clearly indicates theyíve got some connection to this post war Nazi organization. Very clearly and very palpably.

KC: So what about Wernher Von BraunÖ

JF: Uh-huh.

KC: Öwhat about him, and the link withÖ

JF: Öwith all of this?

KC: Yeah. With Debus. Because, if they are working together, is there more than just a working relationship? In other words, what Iím trying to find out is, where did he fit in to this echelonÖ

JF: Öto this picture? Alright! Good question. I do not, in my books, speculate on what that relationship may be. But I'll do so here because I think it's an excellent question.

If you look at Mr. Hoagland and Mr. Baraís hypothesis in Dark Mission, what you have ultimately is a two-track space program. Youíve got one thatís out there for public consumption with the rockets and, you know, all the fireworks and flag-waving, Mom and apple pie. And then there is something else. Itís like youíre dealing with a black hole of news. Thereís news stories around it and then thereís this big black hole right in the middle thatís conspicuous for its blackness, okay?

Well, this little picture of von Braun and Debus, to me, is sort of the icon of what youíre seeing with this two-track space program, because very clearly these two men are engaged in a private conversation thatís behind glass; theyíre both wearing their earphones. Theyíre both kind of close to each other and theyíre pointing off in the distance to something, okay? So I think this relationship goes back to Nazi Germany because I do know that Debus was also part of von Braunís team at PeenemŁnde. And what he was doing for von Braun there was, he was constructing the measuring equipment for these stationary rocket test gantries that the Nazis had built there. But heís also got this connection to the Bell.

Now this is why I find this question interesting, because if you go into the Cooper-Cantwell documents (MAJIC 12 documents) - and Iím not arguing for or against their authenticity; Iím saying Iím looking only at the internal evidence of the documents themselves - they kind of corroborate this picture because what they suggest is that these Nazi Paperclip rocket scientists were brought in to look at this Roswell wreckage.


And the first question that occurs to my mind: Well, why bring in Nazi scientists if you suspect this is ET? Youíre going to want to keep that as classified as possible from your former enemy, okay? But you bring íem in because it looks German.

And von Braun... Okay? Youíve got von Braun and Arthur Rudolph and all these Nazi scientists looking at this stuff and they come up with this explanation of what this is. Itís some sort of Neutronic engine with fusion thatís taking place, and so on and so forth. And that tells me that if thatís true, then somebody - if itís disinformation - somebody knows that Debus and von Braun communicated something way back in Nazi Germany and that von Braun knew enough about this other secret project to be able to say that to his American interrogators.

Hence, we go back to that picture. What that picture represents to me is that this two-track space program begins in World War Two and in Nazi Germany. Because what do you have? Youíve got rockets that are very visible. And youíve got this Bell thing and all of this secret stuff that really doesnít even come out until after German Reunification. The Nazis are seeing to it that the Soviet Union and the United States get the jets and the rockets, but theyíre keeping this to themselves.

BR: If theyíre keeping it to themselves, what have they been doing with it in the last 63 years?

JF: Excellent question. Because if you can imagine... Letís just go back. Youíve got Martin Bormann sitting in Argentina, with a joint bank account with Juan Peron, thatís sitting on top of almost eight hundred million dollars. Thatís a hefty chunk of change at that point in history. Properly invested... and Bormann was a financial whiz. I mean thereís no doubt about this. He knew how to move money and make money. Properly invested, you can sustain this kind of independent project, move it around. At some point I think itís going to require a partner if itís going to be made big and practical and usable. Okay?

But yeah, in 63 years itís very feasible to me that theyíve worked out the medical bugs, you know, that you can put somebody inside of one of these contraptions and fly it around, okay? Yeah, itís very conceivable that this would be possible.

Itís conceivable to me that at an even earlier date you could take aspects of that technology and wed it to more conventional technologies to kind of boost their efficiency, so to speak. This is why I think that picture of Debus and von Braun at NASA is very telling, because if Debus is involved in Apollo and in The Bell... Again, that to me points to an alternative technology, possibly. That and other things. Iím certainly not arguing the whole case on that.

So yeah, in 63 years what could they do with this? You know, project the learning curve. You know, to me itís very feasible the medical issues have been solved. They may have been able to find a practical application for free energy. But you know, hereís the bad news: Once again, they may have been able to weaponize this stuff. And that, to me, is the scariest part.

BR: But if I understand you right, youíre suggesting thereís an isolated group of Nazis; maybe their descendents...

JF: Right.

BR: ...somewhere in South America, probably Argentina...

JF: Brazil, Chile... [laughs] Yeah.

BR: Etcetera, yeah. With access to this salvaged and exported exotic technology...

JF: Mm-hm.

BR: ...with continued funding and continued protection from somewhere.

JF: Somewhere.

BR: That are doing what? Theyíre not having to pay their electricity bills? Theyíre flying around, looking around, and weaponizing it against who? This doesnít seem to make sense on its own.

JF: Okay. Let me give you a context. The modern financial meltdown, to me, is a sign that there is a breakdown occurring between the old postwar dťtente. And what do I mean by that? The founders of the Bilderberg Group were Lawrence and David Rockefeller; a Rothschild was involved. That represented kind of the Anglo-American corporate interest.

But on the European side, who is the principal founder? Prince Bernhard of the Netherlands. Whoís Prince Bernhard? Heís an SS officer. And therefore, if you still have an extant post-war Nazi chain of command, and weíve already mentioned that we do... If you have an extant post-war Nazi chain of command, then an SS officer like Bernhard answers to his chief, which is Martin Bormann, who holds an SS four-star generalís rank, okay?


But Bernhard is also a vice president of - oh, looky-looky - IG Farben, okay? Which, incidentally, I want to point out, IG Farben was only finally completely liquidated in what year?

BR: I have no idea.

JF: 2003.

BR: Really!

JF: Yes. [laughs]

BR: Okay.

JF: This corporation was so big and so huge, and all of these licensing agreements that it had all over the world were in such a tangle that it took literally that long to finally get rid of the whole thing. Thatís an enormous amount of power.

KC: But did Bormann report to von Braun?

JF: No. Von Braun reported... If anyoneís reporting in that chain, itís von Braun reporting to Bormann. Okay?

KC: Okay.

JF: But letís get back to Prince Bernhard, because present at these early Bilderberger meetings is a very significant figure. Itís Dr. Hermann Josef Abs, who is the CEO of Deutsche Bank, one of the worldís largest international banks. The bank that, incidentally, cleared Bormannís check in Buenos Aires that was drawn on Manufacturers Hanover and Chase Manhattan; big Rockefeller banks. Morgan Rockefeller interests.

So putting all of these little pieces together, what it looks like to me is that the Bilderberger groupís first secret purpose after the war was to take all of this liquid cash that is sitting in the hands of these post-war Nazis and move it through these Western banks, make it available to these Western bankers. And a lot of it, I suspect, was even kept off the books. Theyíre laundering a huge amount of money, in other words.

Now, hereís the problem. I like to say - and I thank Richard Hoagland for this kind of analogy because he came out with this one at a conference and I just love it: With Martin Bormann weíre dealing with a Dick Cheney without the warmth and charm.

So in other words, when theyíre negotiating these deals, you know: We agree with you. Corporate fascism is the way to go and weíre agreed that world domination is kind of a cool idea and weíre willing to play ball with each other. And hereís a lot of money to do it. [laughs] You know?

Well, when youíre dealing with someone like Bormann, youíre dealing as I said, with Dick Cheney with no warmth and charm. That money is going to come with a lot of strings attached, and when the markers come due youíd better be able to pay.

BR: Mm-hm.

JF: Uh-huh.

BR: Mm-hm.

JF: And if... with Bormann you have an intelligence organization that was headed up by his friend Heinrich Muller, whom I also believe escaped Nazi Germany - the actual head of the Gestapo - youíre dealing with people that cannot only make threats, but carry them out, even against the extremely wealthy and the extremely powerful.

KC: But the US won the war.

JF: Sort of.

KC: Why would the US let the Nazis go to Argentina, with their blessing, without having their hands in that pie?

JF: Simple. Exactly. Theyíre got their hands in that pie.

KC: Okay.

JF: And Bormann, as Iíve said, has negotiated - again, this is a part of... I know youíre under time constraints, so for me to answer that question Iíd have to keep you here, okay, but...

KC: We [overtalk] a little time here [laughs].

JF: Well, basically what we have with Bormann is working out a deal to surrender all these atom bomb components to the United States. So in other words, Bormann already has a certain amount of moral leverage over the United States. He could easily expose the whole thing and expose the United States as having made a deal with the devil. Itís kind of a classical Mexican standoff.

Thatís part of the problem that weíre faced with. And again, part of this deal includes all of this German military intelligence that gets kind of slid into the CIA, you know, but remains operationally under the control of the very same Nazi general that it was in control of during the World War itself.

KC: [overtalk]

BR: And thereís a whole bunch of mind control technology. We havenít even gone there.

JF: Oh yes! Exactly! I mean, on and on this goes, you know. And for me the real point is, is once we make that deal with the devil, we say: Okay, Martin (or whoever), we need you to take care of some business and we donít want to sully our lily-white American hands with it. But we know that you have the people who can do this.

Sure. But in doing this deal, any time that happens, you have just put yourself in the position to be blackmailed and these people will do it. In other words, they can expose you as being involved in these, you know, sordid affairs around the world. So I think the whole result of this deal with the devil... and I think we begin to realize it right around the 1950s with Eisenhower, because whatís he warn against when he leaves office? Military-industrial complex. And he knows all of these Nazis, okay? He knows these Nazis because he fought them.

And I think the warning heís giving the American people, and for that matter The West, as a matter of fact, is not so much against the homegrown American military-industrial complex, but whoís infiltrating and weeding their way into all of these positions of power and influence within it - namely, Nazis. This is a very... [searching for words] ... Iím sorry to be so inarticulate here because Iím trying to connect a lot of dots very quickly for you.


But yeah, I think the ultimate reason is: theyíve got a gun to the Anglo-American elitesí head.

And to bring it up to modern times, what... and again, Iím simply speculating here in answer to your earlier question, but the behavior of the corporate elite at the bailout hearings, with this business of no oversight, and the kind of pronouncements coming out of major banking leaders and families and groups and so on, strike me as not being acted-out panic but genuine panic. And as I go around the world I see panic, but itís not near the hysteria and pitch that it is in this country, coming from Europe. Thereís certainly panic in Iceland, but it seems like the further east we go, the less panic and hysteria there is.

But itís this bailout without oversight idea that looks to me... Thatís the kind of behavior of someone whoís being blackmailed with a gun to their head: Well, we want a lot of money but we canít tell you what itís for.

BR: This is a very, very interesting thesis.

JF: Yeah. Itís very suspicious. Now to put it in the context with Nazis, and I think the reason, perhaps, for your question is that the only thing I see within the context of recent history in the last 60 to 70 years that could put that extremely powerful Anglo-American corporate banking interest or elite in that kind of peril, is precisely an entity that had enormous amounts of liquid capital that it moved into their banks and left there for a very long time as part of the deal: Weíll give you this money. Do with it what you will. Leave us alone.

BR: Is this the research angle that you would like to follow in the coming months as more information becomes available about the current crisis?

JF: Iím not really a conspiracy theorist. I touch on these things only when it seems like the physics aspects of it lead there. But I get asked this question a lot, so Iíve kind of speculated, you know, reasoned out this kind of scenario.

But I can tell you this: Iím researching a book - writing a book now - that deals with, I hope effectively, deeply-seated and rooted reasons for this very strange connection between physics and finance that seems to pop up over and over and over again. And Iíll only say this: Itís very deeply rooted and very, very old.

BR: Yes. Thatís a beautiful thought to leave a lot of people to ponder.

JF: [laughs] Leave them hanging.

BR: Something that Peter Levenda mentioned beautifully succinctly when we talked to him last week. He said: Look, the whole world canít go broke. Someoneís got to have the money.

JF: Exactly.

BR: And something that seems very obvious to us when weíre knocking this subject around between us, is that if you look at all the black projects, all the modern-day equivalents of the Bell experiments, wherever they are...

JF: Wherever they are.

BR: ...on this planet or even elsewhere, then, you know, this is costing money. And if you think of money as energy, itís like where... You know, this energy is being drained out of the global circuit, and itís going somewhere.

JF: Where is it going? [laughs]

BR: Yes. Where is it going? Which is another way of reframing the same question that I believe youíre asking.

JF: Exactly! Exactly.

BR: Now, just to draw together some of these strings, and there are a lot of strings.

JF: Oh yes. [laughs]

BR: And I know that you donít even pretend that this is tidy.

JF: Oh no. I certainly donít. [laughs]

BR: And itís a little bit like the sort of, you know, out-takes after a movie: What happened to this character? What happened to that character? Are you assuming that Hans Kammler ended up wherever Martin Bormann ended up?

JF: Yes.

BR: Okay. Are you assuming that the reason why the Nazis never actually used their arguably well-developed nuclear technology... And this is another whole interview to talk about the evidence of that.

JF: Sure. Oh yeah. [laughs]

BR: But we support you in your thesis that it looks like it was far more advanced than anyone has publicly given them credit for.

JF: Right. Right.

BR: But they never used it, even though they tested it and they had it for quite a few years. Was this because they were planning to use it as a bargaining chip later?

JF: Possibly. But I think you could possibly also make a case... Look, one of the things... Iím kind of a military strategy games buff. I play these things all the time. Itís my entertainment, you know. I do this like people watch TV or movies, okay? And you know as well as I do that the Wehrmacht on the Eastern Front achieved this just staggering kill ratio against the Red Army, against the Russians.

BR: Yeah. Millions of Red soldiers.

JF: Half of the casualties of World War Two were inflicted by the Nazi war machine on Soviet Russia.

BR: Yeah. And you know I had never understood how such a tiny nation could go up against all the Russian soldiers...

JF: And just clobber... [laughing]

BR: ...and just knock íem all out. I could just never understand that.

JF: Exactly. And you know, from my amateur military historian standpoint, conventional wisdom or operations here fail to account for all of this. And incidentally, Russia recently - I think in the last few years - disclosed the fact that its actual casualties may have been as much as ten to fifteen million more than that 25 million weíve been told.

BR: Hm.

JF: So, you know, this tiny, bothersome little country is not only fighting the United Kingdom, and later on the United States, and virtually everybody else, but all of that to them is just kind of a sideshow. This enormous military campaign is taking place on the Eastern Front and, to my mind, as competent and tactically brilliant as the German Army was, this doesnít explain it all to me. So thereís something else going on here, and...

KC: Do you have a theory?

JF: Yeah. Oh yeah. I write about it in my first Nazi book, Reich of the Black Sun. There are persistent rumors that come out of Russia, beginning in the war, that the Nazis are using something on the Eastern Front that they are not using against the Western allies simply because, of course, the Communists - the Bolsheviks - are their ideological enemies, you know. So, yeah. Theyíre subhuman. We can use all of this grisly technology we have on them. But...

KC: Are you suggesting bio-warfare?

JF: No. Iím suggesting perhaps radiological bombs. I am absolutely certain that theyíre using some prototypical or first-generation fuel-air bombs. And if you donít know what a fuel-air bomb is, thatís a conventional bomb with the explosive punch of a tactical nuke. Now, Iíll show... and Iíll go further. Iíll tell you how theyíre using them. Theyíre using them in rocket-launched multi-barrel artillery batteries.

So if you can say the phrase tactical nuke and carpet bombing, you get an idea of, you know, this carnage that theyíre inflicting on the Red Army. And itís so bad that in 1941 during the battle for Moscow when the Germans are doing this stuff, the Soviets, through Sweden, tell the Germans that if they donít cease and desist theyíll start using poison gas. You know, itís that bad.

BR: But there are also... I mean, besides that fascinating induction from those circumstances...

JF: Right.

BR: ...there are eyewitness reports...

JF: Oh yes. Absolutely.

BR: ...of people who report something that looks exactly like a nuclear blast.

JF: Yes. Exactly. Exactly. Youíve got all of this stuff going on on the Eastern Front that is inexplicable without, in my opinion, the use and deployment of all of these advanced Nazi weapons. So thatís, I think, why we donít hear of it. And a final point in that respect is, during the war Stalinís government is going to be loathe to admit that it is facing an enemy that is that much more technologically superior.

BR: Itís embarrassing at least. [laughs]

JF: At the very least itís embarrassing. But imagine in the Red Army when the morale, with this slaughter, this blood-letting thatís going on, that you have to have Commissars literally threatening to shoot anyone who deserts, just to maintain morale at some of these big battles. If Stalin had admitted this publicly, it, number one, I think could have so severely weakened his government that it might have cost him his government, you know.

BR: Yes.

JF: And number two, had that been the case, it may have brought in a government that would have been willing to sue for peace. In fact, Stalin even tried to do that in 1942.

BR: Yes. And those reports of those generals; first commanders, being willing to shoot the soldiers who would desert... This is completely contrary to everything we understand about the Russian psyche, the Russian personality, the Russian dogged resistance.

JF: Exactly.

BR: It just doesnít match, does it?

JF: It doesnít. Exactly.

KC: I thought it was the Russian winter that stopped the Nazis.

JF: Well, I mean, we get... Yeah. Thereís all of this happy claptrap [Kerry laughs], especially in American, you know, university and history textbooks.

KC: Okay.

JF: You know, America comes in and saves the day in World War One. America comes in and saves the day in World War Two, you know. To me, this is just military baloney.

KC: Okay.

JF: Because we come in fairly late. And if you look at American campaigns in World War Two, weíre kind of on the periphery of things all the time. The actionís going on in the Soviet Union.

So, you know, yeah, General Winter and all that. But you can argue against that thesis because in August of 1941 Adolph Hitler turns Army Group Center, the Second Panzer Army, 650 miles south out of the way to encircle some Russian forces in Kiev, when in front of them heís 250 miles from Moscow at the end of August [laughs] and they have decimated sixty percent of the Red Army and heís got one Russian rifle division standing between him and Moscow. So the war was lost, not by General Winter or General Mud, but by Hitler making this dumb, stupid, silly, indefensible military decision to take that detour. [laughs]

BR: Yeah.

KC: Is it possible that even that is, you know, disinfo? And that what really changed the war was the deals being made with the Americans because they decided they were fighting a losing battle and they were making monetary deals and getting out of Germany because they wanted to rewrite history and go in a different direction?

JF: Okay. Well, I think the deals begin to be struck - the feelers are put out for them, certainly - in the period from the fall of the Sixth Army at Stalingrad up to the failure of the German offensive at Kursk in 1943; July of 1943. So itís this time period

KC: Thatís early.

JF: Thatís fairly early. After Kursk, the offensive capability of the Wehrmacht is broken for a good year and a half, okay? So itís during this period that the Nazi leadership quietly make the feelers, hope that the offensive goes well, but they put out, they lay the foundation. After the battle of Kursk, this kicks into high gear and you have all of these secret negotiations taking place. Yeah. I think you can make a certain argument that some of this history has been deliberately doctored to hide this.

BR: Itís a reasonable assumption.

JF: Sure.

BR: Let me ask you one final question...

JF: Okay.

BR: ...although itís an important one and it could be a big one, and I donít know whether itís an easy one or not.

JF: Okay.

BR: But that is: If there is such a thing as a central power base of the Nazis now, where is it? Who are they? And what strings are they pulling? And why should we care?

JF: Ah... Germany and some of the major politicians. [laughs]

BR: Germany? Now?

JF: Germany. Yeah.

BR: Really! I didnít know you were going to say that!

JF: Yeah, as surprising as it may seem. One of the things that I looked at very carefully is the German Reunification. When the Berlin Wall falls, it falls on the exact date - I forget the exact numerical date in my head - but it falls on the exact date of the anniversary of Kristallnacht in 1938.

BR: Hm.

JF: It falls... and that, incidentally, is the anniversary of the Beer Hall Putsch. Okay?

BR: Okay.

JF: Now if you go back and recall whatís taking place in East Germany at the time. Thereís all these mass meetings and demonstrations in Leipzig and Dresden of a bunch of East German intellectuals that are pushing for the reform of the East German state. Theyíre not pushing for reunification.

But then an amazing thing happens - and this, to me, is the dead giveaway - the meetings themselves begin to have lots of neo-Nazis start attending. These people show up with cell phones, computers, and lots of money, and using typical Nazi tactics, strong-arm any opposition out of these meetings and begin to kind of steer them so that even the popular slogans that the reformers were chanting: Wir sind das Volk (We are the people) is changed to Wir sind ein Volk.

BR: Ah. We are one people.

JF: Ein Volk, ein Reich, ein Fłhrer. Okay?

BR: Yes.

JF: Now, on the other side, Chancellor KŲhlís government in Bonn is very quietly but very seriously channeling money and driving this stuff. So, in other words, what Iím saying: you cannot have neo-Nazi cells in communist Eastern Europe suddenly popping up with cell phones, computers, all this money, organized, ready to go, without having had an intelligence structure in Eastern Europe to begin with to support it.

And when all of this activity happens - BANG - all of a sudden Bonn has, ready to go, ready to hand, a plan for reunification. And itís basically a shotgun wedding and itís typical Hitlerís tactics: Well, weíll give you the opportunity to vote on whether you want reunification.


And again, what happens? When the referendum is held in those East Germany provinces, the neo-Nazis show up and they are driving some of this activity to keep people voting that are going to vote for it and to keep people that donít want that out.

BR: But isnít this part of establishing one of the central planks for the European Union?

JF: Oh, of course it is!

BR: Okay.

JF: But what does Martin Bormann say that he wants to do after the war? He wants to create a European federation, or confederation, which Germany will be able to dominate. And listen to his words now: By elastic political means. In other words, heís learned to speak the lingo to a ďTĒ.

BR: Okay. But are you saying, then, that whatever may or may not be going on in America right now is divorced from what youíve just described? Thereís no connection?

JF: Oh no, no. Not at all. Iíve very alarmed because what I see happening in America within the last ten, twelve years, is this emergence of a horrendous fascist police-state/snitch culture. Oh absolutely.


No, I wouldnít say itís divorced from it at all.

But I am saying look to Europe and look at recent events very carefully, and look especially at the events surrounding German Reunification and the moves Germany made afterward - almost immediately - to crack up Czechoslovakia and to crack up Yugoslavia. Because, remember, it was West Germany, the recently-reunited Germany, that was the first nation to recognize breakaway Croatia over the opposition of Washington and London. They did that unilaterally.

And when Croatia got its independence, it turned around and said: Oh, please help us. Will someone please help us? Send peace keepers? - BANG - Germany sent troops. BANG - Germany sent the Luftwaffe. BANG - Germany sold off all that communist equipment to Croatia and re-equipped the East German part of the newly-absorbed East German Army with Bundeswehr equipment.

So look at Germany carefully. And it did a lot more. I mean, go onto YouTube. This is a kick, because I found on YouTube a Bundeswehr Wachbataillon doing a music drill show in Cologne - okay? - in 2005! [laughs]

This just floored me because here in America, you know, [laughing] we have no idea that this is going on. But they come marching into this stadium, carrying the Bell Tree, drums a-blazing, piping out Prussiaís glory. You know? So in other words, Iím looking at a restoration of all of these old Prussian military traditions right before my eyes, and the only thing theyíre not doing is the goose step. [laughs] Iím just floored.

But it scares me because I told some friends about five years before the reunification even happened, I said: You watch. If it does happen, they will slowly bring back all of those military traditions.


And now, you know, this two, three years later, theyíre holding Torchlight Tattoos with the Bundeswehr again marching in, carrying the Bell Tree, and all these old Prussian trappings, doing this Torchlight Military Tattoo out in front of the Reichstag, you know. So, itís scary to me. I mean, itís creepy.

KC: And also...

BR: Understood.

KC: Obama was... did a special...

JF: At the Siegessšule!

KC: At the Gate, right? - [ed. note: Brandenburg Gate] - Which is supposed to be a very important symbol of the event from the occult standpoint.

JF: Oh sure! Of course. Yeah. And I donít think this is a good symbolism at all. There are some people that do, you know. Iím disagreed with my good friend Richard Hoagland over this. But, you know, why do we have a presidential candidate go to Berlin? Sure, itís nice to have good relations with Europe, obviously.

BR: Itís also got to do with the touch of the Kennedy.

JF: Yeah. Itís good to have good relations with Moscow and Beijing, [laughs] you know, and that would seem to me to be the logical place that you would go. But Berlin?

KC: But thereís some subliminal thing going on here.

JF: Oh sure.

KC: I mean, if theyíre permeated NASA, they have to permeate the undercover, you know, black projects...

JF: Right.

KC: ...thoroughly, and that means theyíve permeated the real secret government of the United States. So thereís an alignment there.

JF: Okay. Ask yourself this: The Hadron Collider, okay? Youíve got two huge counter-rotating rings and theyíre going to spin up these particles and smash íem together. Okay? I find that whole counter-rotating idea really weird, you know, suggestively weird. But the really weird thing to me is:


Why is the first Christian Democratic Union Party Chancellor of Germany after KŲhl a physicist? [Ed. note: he is referring to Angela Merkel.]

BR: Hm.

JF: Did you know that?

BR: I did not.

JF: Sheís a Ph.D. in physics. [laughs]

BR: Okay.

JF: Why is she a Ph.D. in physics?

BR: A Ph.D. in physics.

JF: Yeah. Now, you know what a German Ph.D. is like, to get.

BR: I do.

JF: [laughs] You know, they donít hand them out by any means and this, to me... Why is someone like that even in politics, but especially at that level? You know? This is not a Ph.D. in physics becoming premier of Somalia, you know. [laughs] This is a rather sophisticated nation, technologically. So that to me, you know... itís another little indicator that we have to watch things over there very carefully.

BR: So now, whatís really fascinating here... As youíve kindly pointed out, we are under a pressure of time this evening. Weíve only done nearly two hours and we could probably do another four without even thinking about it because there are so many places this conversation can go.

JF: Oh yeah.

BR: I donít know when we will next all be in the same place at the same time, but right now I would like to say that weíd love to talk to you again on audio to explore some of these things.

JF: Sure. Thatíd be fine.

BR: And Iím quite sure Iím going to wake up tomorrow morning, if not go down right now in the escalator, with a whole bunch of questions which I havenít had a chance to ask.

JF: Right. Right.

BR: What I do want to do is I want to thank you for your diligence, your creativity, your articulateness in explaining these concepts which are difficult for a lot of people to grasp because this story is so huge.

JF: Oh yes.

BR: Youíve been describing that part of the iceberg that is not often seen.

JF: Right. Right.

BR: Someoneís got to do it, and I think youíve done a wonderful job.

JF: Well, thank you. Thank you. I appreciate that.

BR: Itís our pleasure and our privilege to assist you in that, and we look forward to seeing you again, and we look forward to talking to you again.

JF: Itíll be my pleasure.

BR: Thank you very much for your time.

JF: Thank you.


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