by Wayne Morris
January 4, 1998
CKLN fm 88.1
Ryerson Polytechnical University
Good morning, welcome to the International Connection. This is
show #35 in the radio series on Mind Control and over the next
few shows we are going to be talking to Fritz Springmeier and
Cisco Wheeler, co-authors of the "Illuminati Formula Used to
Create an Undetectable Total Mind Control Slave" and "Deeper
Insights", books about trauma based conditioning mind control.
Fritz is a researcher about the Illuminati and minister to mind
control victims. Cisco Wheeler says she is from a generational
Illuminati family and that trauma-based mind control was
perpetrated against her from birth. We will hear the interview
with Cisco in a couple of weeks, and today we are going to hear
an interview with Fritz Springmeier. Fritz talks about the
Illuminati families and how they have used mind control to
consolidate their power throughout history. You are listening to CKLN 88.1 FM.
I am speaking with Fritz Springmeier author, lecturer and
minister to mind control survivors. Welcome to the show Fritz.
Thank you and hello to all you listeners out there in radioland.
I encourage you to participate with our program today because we
are going to be speaking about some important things that affect
your life and will affect the lives of your grandchildren.
I would like to start off with asking you how you first came
across the information about government mind control.
Government mind control overlaps with many other things - it
overlaps with a higher government and a secret world government
called the Illuminati. As I investigated
the Illuminati I had to
also learn about their front that they operate. They hide behind
the veil of National Security. They use our patriotism against
us and make us think that for our own interest, for our own
security of our own nations, that we have to subject ourselves
to all the secrecy that they impose upon us.
Did you come across all the information about mind control
through your research into the Illuminati, or vice versa?
Yes, through the Illuminati. Thatís not to say that I hadnít
been watching the government too, but a lot of what we see out
front is just that - itís a front and if we really want to
understand whatís going on, we have to look behind that front.
Maybe you could explain to our listeners, to your understanding,
who are the Illuminati?
The Illuminati are the movers and shakers of the world. They are
an elite group of bloodlines - I call these tribes or families -
13 major bloodlines. They are what are called
"generational satanists". That means that they have
their secret witchcraft for many centuries and they have passed
their religion down from one generation to the next. They lead
double lives. They have one life that the world sees and then
they have a hidden life that the world doesnít see. There have
been very few people that have been able to break through the
secrecy. They have taken secrecy to a fine art that I would
never have believed that anyone could achieve until I started
getting into this, and there have been very few people over the
years that have broken through that secrecy at all. There was a
man named John Robison who wrote
Proofs of a Conspiracy against
all the religions and governments in Europe carried on in the
secret meetings of the Freemasons, the Illuminati and reading
societies. That came out in 1798 and the Bavarian government, by
raiding several safe houses of the Illuminati, captured original
Illuminati documents back at that time period which were bound
and sent out to all the governments entitled: "Die Originalschriften des Illuminatens Ordens" (sp?) as the German
title the Bavarian government gave it.
But in modern times there have been very few people that have
been able to talk about the Illuminati as it exists today, and
thatís been my job. To bring to the world who these people are,
what their traditions are, what they are doing, everything about
them. The reason I am giving a longer version here to your
question is that when someone asks who or what are the
Illuminati, they do not think like we do. People often times
interpret things around them in terms of how they themselves
think or their own world view. If you want to understand the
Illuminati, you have to understand that these people do not
think like you or I.
In just one area alone, that is a large percentage of these
people are programmed multiple personalities and just that in
itself creates a whole different thinking pattern from those of
us who are not multiple.
When you say the Illuminati, is this the same group that is
documented that Adam Weishaupt had started back in 1776 in
Bavaria? Is this the same group?
Itís the same group. He actually didnít start the organization,
it goes way back. These are oligarchical families that are
extremely powerful and if you go back in history and ask
yourself the question, "when did the elite, powerful,
oligarchical families ever give up their power?" You canít find
any point in history. These are the families that - some of
these bloodlines go clear back to Nimrod.
The Rothschild secret
genealogy that they have secretly written down through the
centuries, traces their genealogy back to Nimrod. These people
were the ones that controlled the mystery religions. There was a
supreme council that sat over all of these mystery religions of
the ancient world. They were an extremely powerful priesthood,
and they chose to go underground for many years and continue
working behind the scenes. But they never left.
At the end of WWII there was a committee that was sent out
throughout Europe to do a study of all of the churches that had
been destroyed by the war, and they discovered that in most of
these Christian churches (80%) they found that where the
Christian alter had been, when these churches had been
destroyed, underneath these alters were pagan alters that had
been uncovered. So what you have is that a lot of these
cathedrals were built on lay lines that were very powerful
occult spiritual points and on after hours these churches were
used for what we would call satanic rituals. So this has been
going on secretly for many centuries.
And you are saying that the Illuminati are responsible for
infiltrating these churches?
These are our movers and shakers, very powerful bloodlines. For
instance, one of these bloodlines includes all of your royal
families of Europe. They are the people that have been in
control. If you look at a lot of these nation states, you will
notice that at the head of their church are their kings and
You mentioned there are 13 families in the generations of the
Illuminati families? Can you name them?
I came out with a book that was specifically designed to go
family by family and discuss them. The top 13 bloodlines are the
Astors, Bundy, Collins, Dupont, Freeman, Kennedy, Leigh, Onassis,
Rockefellers, Rothschild, Russell ... then there is a 13th
bloodline which is
the Merovingian bloodline. I just simple call
it the 13th and then there is the
Van Duyne Illuminati bloodline.
The 13th bloodline, the Merovingian, is extremely important. It
includes the royal families of Europe. In my Volume I book which
covers the Top Thirteen Illuminati Bloodlines, thatís the title
to it, I donít go into the Merovingian bloodline so much because
there came out a trilogy of books, "The Holy Blood and the Holy
Grail" and two other books by their authors - Baigent, Leigh and
Lincoln - which is so good in discussing this bloodline that
wasnít any real reason for me to go into it.
For instance Prince Charles would be part of that. If you look
at Prince Charles, you will notice in his genealogy he is
related to our Presidents Washington, Jefferson, Madison, both
of the Harrisons, Tyler, Taylor, George Bush. Bushís vice
president, Dan Quayle, was also related to the royal family.
Prince Charles is also related to Mrs. Woodrow Wilson. Here in
the USA the concept is that we have all of these individuals who
have been selected to run this country who are unrelated to each
other -- and yet it is quite the contrary.
I have been told when they dedicated
George Bushís library in
Texas recently, that President Carter mentioned that he was
reading a recently published book about the Presidents being
somehow related to each other.
When did you first realize the existence of the Illuminati? What
information came your way to spark your interest?
Everybody has probably heard of Jehovahís Witnesses and how they
would go out and knock on peopleís doors. I was the opposite. I
was a Christian missionary to bring Jehovahís Witnesses to
Christ and I was getting tired of working with these little
Jehovahís Witnesses on the street, and I was praying to God to
be given the power to decapitate the authoritarian organization
that is over these Jehovahís Witnesses. At that point, I got my
prayer answered. I got this confidential information that the
heads of the Watchtower Society were collaborating with the
heads of the Latter Day Saints church. That information totally
changed my life. I had bumped into the Illuminati and their mind
control, and I am not to single out the Watchtower Society and
the Mormon church because I found out that their infiltration
and control is pretty well right across the whole spectrum. Your
Christian organizations in general have been infiltrated and
controlled from behind the scenes.
This is when I first bumped into the Illuminati. I had learned
about 20 years previous to this what a lot of people are already
aware of about the
Council of Foreign Relations,
Commission and these types of groups,
the Bilderbergers - but
there is a whole other level to things. When I started getting
into reading, researching and trying to help people that wanted
out of the Illuminati to get out - I started getting in at that
level. Then I had to work with the mind control. One thing led
What is the relationship of the groups you just mentioned to the
There are a lot of groups around the world that are making
decisions that are controlling things from behind the scenes and
these particular groups are fronts for the Illuminati. Not
fronts in the sense that they have no actual purpose, they serve
a purpose. But there is a hidden level of control back behind
In terms of the Illuminati families and the whole organization
itself, what are their goals? Why have they infiltrated so many
of these organizations?
Ultimately itís to bring in what people have termed
World Order with a man who will hold the worldís attention and
carry the title The Antichrist. Thatís the ultimate goal and I
am not trying to wax religious on people but thatís just the
simple fact. When you get into deprogramming people you will see
that a lot of the things they have been programmed to do tie in
with a very sophisticated plan to unify the world under the
reign of the Antichrist.
You mentioned that the Illuminati group has used mind control to
further their goals. How did you first come into this? You have
been working with your partner, Cisco Wheeler, who I understand
was an Illuminati mind control victim. How did you first meet
and realize what was going on there?
She was trying to break free of her mind control. What I
stumbled upon was, at least in my opinion, the greatest slavery
involved in all history. You had four high level Illuminati
women who had been teamed together. They had all become
Christians and were trying to break free and had become a
support system for each other. Here I was a researcher of the
Illuminati, thereís a lot to try and explain. When you are under
the mind control, there is a lot of programming not to reveal
the secrets. It is very difficult for someone who has been in
the Illuminati and received their standard mind control to not
divulge what is going on, so it made it much easier to work with
me that I had already done my homework, and they knew I was
going to understand what they were talking about. They didnít
have to say a lot to communicate certain things, because I was
already aware and that saved them from a lot of the grief from
the program kicking in for having talked too much.
Cisco was part of this group attempting to escape the mind
control, and I got involved in their lives and did what I could
to help them. I brought Cisco out of the Illuminati and in
return my learning curve about the Illuminati was greatly
increased because I was given inside information from these
people and a number of other people. Like I say, trying to
understand the secret organization, the secret bloodlines is
very difficult, because one has to stand outside of oneís own
culture and own way of thinking and understand these people as
they think, and they do not think like we do. Being able to work
with these people who were in the Illuminati was very valuable.
Because they have used mind control techniques on their own
family members throughout the years?
Oh yes. They have been carrying out this mind control on their
own people as well as others for centuries and this has all been
a very closely guarded secret. Itís one of the reasons why they
have been able to carry out so much to implement this New World
Order without people being able to figure out there is such a
thing as a worldwide unified conspiracy. They are very skilled
in knowing how to bring things about so they appear natural.
What is the purpose of them using mind control on their own
Itís really essential. If you are going to participate in the
Illuminati secret life, being a programmed multiple is basic.
There are a few in the Illuminati who arenít programmed
multiples, but considering what one has to participate in.
Youíve got a number of standard rituals involved - St. Weinbald,
St. Agnes, Grand Climax, Walpurgis, Beltane, all your solstices
and equinoxes, Lamas, All Hallowís Eve, High Grand Climax -- all
of these standard rituals. These rituals are very horrific. They
involved human sacrifice. Sacrifices of babies on the High Grand
Climax. On various Sabbats youíve got a young female or a male
This is not something that the normal mind is going to be able
to handle. The mind control and the creation of multiple
personalities where you get a Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde effect -
is very crucial to this thing continuing from generation to
They really use the multiple personalities to facilitate this
double life that they have to lead ... before we get into the
techniques that they use for mind control and the details of
that, you mentioned they seem to have a belief system as well.
Could you talk about that?
The Illuminati is the continuation of the Mystery Religions and
as someone comes an adept of the Illuminati they have to learn a
whole series of paths. They give the different types of cult
knowledge names from the 12 Apostles plus the 13th is called
Holy Grail. These men and women become very skilled in occult
knowledge and I am not sure how much I should go into that, but
I guess what I am trying to say is that they will be trained in
alchemy, in Indian sorcery, Druidism, Enochian magik,
Gnosticism, Hermetic magik, cabbalism, Plato, Sufism - they will
know all the different branches of occult systems.
How do they use that information? Do they incorporate elements
of all of those occult belief systems into their own?
It all ties in together. The idea is to amass occult power to
yourself and thatís the reason why the Collins family was
brought into the top 13 bloodlines. Of course the Merovingian
Dynasty had a lot of magik power and a lot of political power,
but the Collins family which was Scottish had extremely powerful
occult powers so it was brought in to be one of the top occult
lines because they were such powerful black magicians. Cabbalism
and the 26 path workings - this is all very important in the
work that they do, and it all ties in with the mind control too.
But most of the therapists out there are secular or approach it
from the secular angle, and as they deal with these mind control
victimsí programming, they donít touch on the spiritual aspect.
What I am trying to say is that their religious beliefs canít be
separated from the mind control. It is an integral part of that.
Do the Illuminati worship a single being such as Lucifer?
Youíve got different levels in which people operate within the
Illuminati. There is the anarchy level which is your common
witchcraft coven, and then youíve got your hierarchy level. On
the anarchy level there are thousands and thousands of covens. I
have listed the addresses and names of hundreds of these in one
of my books. These covens are very eclectic. They can have their
own traditions, their own rituals. There is a wide variety of
practices on the anarchy level ... thatís what it looks like, is
total anarchy. One doesnít see any connection.
Above that is your hierarchy level where you would have Asmodeus,
your Grand Masters, and Mothers of Darkness, Grandmothers,
Granddaughters. If you are a programmed multiple, you can
function at many different levels. You can have one personality
in this coven, and another personality in that coven and this
personality that is in the Masonic Lodge, and another in this
hierarchy ceremony, another participating in another Satanic
ritual. It is very broken up. One of the reasons why it is not
easy to answer your question is basically everything we
understood about human behaviour and how to gauge or judge
people is obsolete. The mind control, by creating programmed
multiple personalities, has made all of our ways of judging
Within the Illuminati the supreme goal is to balance their good
deeds with their bad deeds, they are dualists. They are
Luciferians at the highest level. Thatís why your greatest
philanthropist will very often be your highest ranking satanist.
What they are trying to do with their philanthropy is self
serving when you actually look at it. Itís not as generous as it
appears. They are trying to do good deeds and balance those with
their bad deeds, they believe in balance in their religion. Itís
a gnostic luciferianism.
I think it might be difficult for the people listening to
understand how somebody could be in public doing good deeds and
having a good public image, and at the same time having this
very dark side. I donít know if you have read the recent Judith
Spencer book, "Satanís High Priest". It really illustrates how
that works very clearly. Itís a true story about one particular
satanic cult, a high priest, and his rise to that.
No I havenít read the book, but I am glad that you brought that
out to the listeners. The way that someone can begin to see the
Illuminati is to start looking at how these people are above the
wars and the rest of what we have to suffer. For instance
Samuel Dupont, during the French Revolution, all kinds of people
around Pierre lost their heads and yet, for some strange reason,
Samuel Dupont managed to "keep his head" when so many hundreds
of people were losing theirs to the guillotine. One person who
was influential in protecting him was Neckerís daughter, Madame
Germaine Destael. She ran a cat-house, but anyway she was
intimate friends with St. Simon and St. Simonís disciples were
saying at that point in time in the early 1800ís that the target
date for the New World Order would be the year 2000.
Another example in history, and I brought this out in the
Illuminati Bloodlines book, is when the U.S. went to war right
after Pearl Harbor, within a few days, President Roosevelt came
out with a Presidential Decree which was a semi-secret amendment
to the Trading with the Enemy Act, and it made it legal for
certain people to trade with the enemy, if they were given
permission by the American Secretary of the Treasury who at that
time was Hans Morgenthale. I copied the paper work out of the
Federal Code of Regulations. They actually have this
Presidential Decree where if he wanted to exempt somebody, he
could allow them to trade with the enemy. Who were the people
that were given that privilege? Rockefellers and Onassis, both
of them Illuminati kingpins. During WWII every ship that was a
Greek merchant ship was sunk during the War by one side or the
other. Something happened and essentially all of the Greek
shippers lost their vessels. There was one Greek shipper,
Aristotle Onassis, who didnít lose a single ship and his vessels
sailed through all the war zones. None of the Allies or the Axis
powers ever attacked his ships. For something like that to
happen, you have to have full collaboration at the highest
level. You see these kinds of things going like - Pierre Samuel
Dupont, Aristotle Onassis. Then you are looking at somebody who
is Illuminati. They sit above all these conflicts that they
create for all the common people.
This way of bypassing trading with the enemy regulations, how
has this been utilized with regard to WWII or the Bolshevik
revolution for that matter?
In fact there is an entire book out - I think the title is
"Trading with the Enemy", it came out in 1983 and answers your
question. Rockefeller Standard Oil shipped gas and oil to Spain
which then piped it directly to the Nazis. The Allies knew that
Rockefeller was supplying the Germans. That prolonged the War a
couple of year. But you donít hear about this by establishment
historians. There was a lot of important trading during WWII was
necessary to sustain the Nazi war machine.
And you mentioned the Bolshevik revolution. Again you will see
there was a lot of finances sent from, as you are probably well
aware and some listeners are aware, from Kuhn Laib (sp) and
Company and some of these other llumaniti people, and that money
was used by the Bolsheviks to finance the revolution. There were
a lot of other agreements made at that time and things done to
help them out. There is a lot going on behind the scenes.
It seems like they are promoting a strategy of tension where
they are funding both sides and basically profiting from the
resultant conflicts that they are fomenting.
One could go on and on. For instance Heinrich Mueller who was
head of the Gestapo - you will notice that at one point he took
an old Jewish family and he himself had to personally carry
their suitcases to his own car and when he got them to the Swiss
border, he carried their suitcases. The Swiss bodyguards by the
way, were laughing seeing the head of Gestapo helping an old
Jewish family escape Nazi Germany. When the listener out there
starts seeing these kinds of things, now that you have heard me
talk, you can begin to realize that there is a hidden level out
there, way beyond what the common person is allowed to see at
that Illuminati level. These are the people who are
collaborating behind the scenes where you have Catholics and
Protestants and Jehovahís Witnesses and Mormon leaders - you
think these people are at each otherís throats - but they are
key Illuminati people who are secretly collaborating.
In talking about the Illuminati, I think a number of people may
have difficulty believing that there is a Unified Liberal
Conspiracy to control the world. Even myself, up until recently,
until I started researching into the mind control, I thought the
Illuminati was a fictitious group. In doing your research about
the Illuminati, what were some of your other sources of
information besides the people on the inside that had escaped?
My sources, besides my eye witnesses, were interviewing a number
of honest law enforcement and private investigators - in fact
some of these people are still ongoing friends of mine. Over the
years I have studied thousands of books, and thousands of
documents which has meant going to special libraries, such as
the Genealogical Library at Salt Lake City. I have interviewed
and worked with many therapists and I have taken off and
travelled to sites where programming is done, where rituals are
done, where crimes have been committed. For instance in
Washington state, a number of hours from here, there is a full
scale replica of Stonehenge. Below this replica of Stonehenge
which sits on a hill, is a cemetery a number of feet away and
Illuminati rituals are done at that cemetery. Thatís an example
of a place that I have gone and looked at for myself.
I need to bring in another concept here that is important to
research. Itís not all simply just getting a lot of interviews
and the facts because the raw facts arenít going to do it. When
I was in college and I was taking counselling, the psychologist
who was teaching the class gave some excellent advice. He said,
"when you are listening to people or examining a situation,
donít look at the details but look at the process. The details
may throw you for a loop because people will lie, they will give
contradictory information. Look at the process." Thatís a very
good principle. What I have been doing is analyzing a lot of raw
data, raw facts and interview information, and I have been
putting together a coherent puzzle. That means you have to
overlook a lot of disinformation.
In the late seventies there was a certain amount of information
about CIA mind control that came out to the public, and I would
like to know what you think are the problems inherent in trying
to prove the existence of mind control to a general audience
through government documentation?
The problems with trying to expose things through government
documentation are one, the documentation has been destroyed or
tampered with and to get the government involved in exposing
these things, what you are basically doing is asking a bunch of
criminals, thatís what they are even thought they work in
government positions, to expose themselves with paperwork.
Thatís just not the way things work. When we think about the
Nazis, they were trying to destroy all traces of their crimes.
They tried, they didnít succeed. That gives me some hope that
even though a great percentage of the proof of the mind control
in terms of government documentation has been destroyed, I am
still convinced that tons of documents still exist. But I think
even better than those tons of documents are the living proof we
have in the tens of thousands of identified living victims.
The other side to the problem of getting government documents is
that then you have to have some way to broadcast that to the
public at large and we have a controlled media, and
unfortunately the media is very tight with the government. You
can really question whether you would ever see our controlled
media fully expose to the proper degree the people that need to
It seems highly unlikely that the mainstream media is going to
be investigating this. Itís more likely to be coming from
independent investigation and independent publishers of this
I would love to see the places where the records are kept broken
into and these records exposed, but the only way I can see this
happening would be if there was a revolution on the magnitude of
what happened in Eastern Europe where Stasi records and things
like this were exposed to the light of day.
Do you think a government investigation into the mind control
experiments, similar to what has happened with the Tuskegee
syphilis and the radiation experiments would actually bring out
I believe it would bring out information. Thatís true. However,
for the government to investigate this is like asking the fox
how much of a threat he is to chickens. The fox is going to tell
us something, enough to satisfy us, but I am real leery about
giving the government another chance to push some ulterior
agenda. The bottom line is that a government investigation is
going to cost us more tax dollars, and I think people sometimes
forget that every time they send their government scurrying
around doing something that it comes out of their pocketbook.
Do you think there is any benefit though, to society as a whole,
in terms of having a government investigation going on, and
having the government at least admit they did do these kinds of
experiments? Is there any benefit to the people as a whole in
trying to expose this?
As a whole? The way you ask your question is going to reflect
the way I answer. No, it will not. The reason why I say this is
that earlier on the US Congress had Rockefeller investigate the CIA. Rockefeller investigate the CIA!?! (Laughs) Of course his
investigating committee came up with abuses, they have got to
find something wrong, but the thing of it is that it makes
Rockefeller look like a good fellow. "Oh look heís a crusader
who is trying to expose the bad guys." They always throw in an
ulterior agenda. If they are going to do something against
themselves, they use it as another opportunity to work on some
other agenda. If they expose A, B and C about mind control, then
they are probably doing it in a way so they are misdirecting
peopleís attention from their latest technology through an older
model that they have discontinued, or something like that. They
are going to work in some ulterior agenda that when itís all
said and done, it has actually done a disservice.
How do you think the information about mind control has been
kept from public attention for so long?
As we mentioned just a little bit earlier, we have a controlled
media and in a number of my publications I have gone into detail
and showed who is in control of the media, and how these people
are Illuminati members or participating in their Illuminati
fronts. I document how
the Rockefellers, and
the Rothschilds and
the William Randolph Hearsts - Illuminati kingpins - control the
media. I think itís appropriate a couple of anecdotes.
I was visiting one day with a Christian minister and he was
asking me what I did since I worked full time exposing the mind
control and helping victims of mind control, and exposing the
New World Orderís agenda. I was honest with him, and told him
that and in the course of doing that I mentioned something about
the controlled media and boy he hit the roof. He went ballistic
on me because just prior to becoming a minister he had been an
ABC reporter. He said, "there is no control over the media! I
was allowed to write and have any stories that I wanted!" I
said, "whoa, slow down, let me ask you some questions." When you
were hired, your superior hired you and kept you on because he
liked the way you thought and the way you wrote ... and likewise
his superior liked the way he thought and the way he wrote ...
and on and on down the line. If anybody had written or thought
in ways that werenít the approved ways of thinking and writing
you would have gotten in trouble, wouldnít you. He said "yes." I
said, thatís it ... when I work with victims of mind control
they canít see that they are under programming. As long as they
do exactly what the programming asks them to do, they donít know
that they are in programming. The only time that they know that
there is any programming there is if they step out and act
against it. If you are running with the wind behind your back or
if you are in a stream and you are floating down the stream, you
donít notice the current. But when you try to swim upstream is
when you really notice the power of the current. So if you as a
reporter step out of what their expectations are, thatís when
you get clobbered and you realize there is a lot of heavy force
behind going against the direction the way they want to go in.
He said, "youíre right." I said if you had written an article
that had been contrary to the way your boss thought, you would
have been in trouble, wouldnít you? He said, "yes, you are
right, I see your point."
Thatís my point. People donít notice the control until you start
bucking against that control and then you are going to find out
how much control there is over our entire society.
It seems that control in the newsrooms is almost at an unspoken
level, and often for a lot of reporters itís an economic
motivation as well. The stories that their editors do get
accepted, the stories the editors donít like donít get accepted
and the reporters donít get paid for it. They very quickly
appreciate what their editors are going to accept and print.
I would like to talk about the mind control that the Illuminati
have used and the techniques therein. What is your understanding
of the forms of mind control they have used?
The phrase that I like to use is "Total Mind Control" because it
totally controls the person - body, soul and spirit. And the
common person out there has never really imagined that something
so all-encompassing or so horrendous or so totally powerful even
exists. The type of mind control the Illuminati use - I think
some people think "oh, mind control - television - yeah -
subliminals." No. I am talking about something that is 1000 or
10,000 times more powerful. This mind control is totally
undetectable and it totally controls the person and it uses
every known technique of controlling a person wrapped up in a
sophisticated group package. Thatís one of the important things
that a lot of people have not emphasized - that itís not one
technique, but what makes this total mind control of the
Illuminati so powerful is that itís a sophisticated group
package incorporating all of the known techniques of control.
All of these methods have been carefully interwoven. When you
listen to someone from an intelligence agency, occasionally they
have talked similar to this, where they will say, "we tried such
and such a technique but it only worked in 70% of the cases so
we couldnít use it ... and we tried this technique and it only
worked part of the time." But what they are not telling you is
that if you take a method that works only 70% of the time and
match that to another technique that works 60% of the time, and
another technique that works 50% of the time and you have 100
techniques wrapped up together like that, you make a package
deal that totally locks the victim in to the control.
Can you talk about some of these techniques individually and how
they were used as a group package?
When I started out to describe to people what was going on, I
had files and files. I had about 150 files of different
techniques. I was thinking to myself, well I canít talk about
150 techniques, thatís too overwhelming for people. I thought
and realize that all of these techniques broke down into 12
sciences. One of the sciences is the science of trauma and
torture. Others is how to use applied drugs to control a person;
their ability to use mental states such as hypnosis,
dissociation, the trance states; their skill at deceiving people
and deceiving the victim themselves. One needs to understand
that the victims of the Illuminati mind control do not even know
themselves that they are under control. So there is a lot of
skill in using fiction and deceit and fronts and covers. There
is a science of using spiritual things to control a person. In
fact actually that is perhaps one of the major, if not íthe
majorí method of controlling a person.
There is a science of using spiritual things to control a
person. In fact actually that is perhaps one of the major, if
not the major method of controlling a person. One of the things
thatís not political popular today for people today in science
to admit is that mankind has a spiritual side to them, but
humans do have a spiritual side to them and the Illuminati
understand how to spiritually control someone. Their
understanding of that has boggled my mind. They have only
allowed the common people including the Christian people - the
crumbs so to speak - even our ministers have only been given the
crumbs on how to develop a person spiritually.
And how do you feel they have developed this and gained this
A lot of this began back in the Sleep Temples of the Egyptians.
We go back to your Egyptian priesthood and the Mystery religions
- they were already learning at that time how to use electric
shock - they used electric eels and other things to electrically
shock people. They had already started to learn the use of drugs
and herbs to create altered states and to control people. These
were secrets though that were very closely guarded by these
Illuminati families and their Mystery religion priesthood. But
they continued to develop these over the centuries. Another
example of a closely guarded secret was the ability to do
cranial manipulation. During the Middle Ages and even centuries
prior to that, the oligarchical families that controlled the
common people had specialists that did torture for the kings,
and they kept their secrets about torturing to themselves. One
of the things they developed was the ability to do cranial
manipulation. You have to be very careful when you start moving
the bones of the skull. A lot of people donít realize that the
skull is not a solid bone, but it has sutures between the
different parts of it, and you can do very subtle manipulations
and move those skull bones. In fact today there is something
called cranial osteopathy. These osteopaths are very skilled in
using their fingers. That developed from the family of
bone-setters who tied back into the occult who had learned the
secret occult skills of manipulation.
What has effect has this had in terms of the mind control - the
Cranial manipulation has been kept an occult secret in occult
bloodlines for centuries. And it can be used for good, to heal
people. It can be used to change the way the face looks to
improve the face, or it can be used for evil, to torture someone
or to control their mind. By manipulating the skull you can
actually change the way the person thinks to make them more
dissociative, or more compliant, or develop their thinking in
Can you explain how they would start using these techniques, and
generally at what age they would start?
When a child is conceived, a lot of them - their very birth has
been an idea from the start. Somebody who is in the Illuminati
conceiving a child in an occult ritual with a woman. It gets
very involved as to how they hide their lineages. Letís put it
this way. Not everybody born to mothers are actually the
biological children of that mother. There is a lot of switching
done at hospitals and so forth. The childís birth has been
planned. While the child is in the fetus, they already begin
certain things to test the fetusí mental abilities and to
traumatize that fetus so it will be more dissociated.
How would they do that?
A fetus does not like to be poked, does not like substances that
taste bad. If a mother eats a lot of sugar they have shown by
watching the fetus that these unborn children like the taste of
sugar as it diffuses into what the child is getting from the
mother. So if you combine a lot of these things that are
horrific. If you have a lot of loud noises - and the father is
screaming at the mother and throwing her around and abusing the
mother, making the mother very upset. Then youíve got loud
music, rock and roll, or screaming or something. You have also
given the mother something to eat that tasted really bad to the
fetus and you can do a number of things that are going to hit
that little unborn child at the same time. Itís going to be
overwhelmed, and itís going to develop its ability to
To your awareness, has electricity been used in this regard?
Not so much in the traumatization of the fetus. They use that
after the child is born. They oftentimes will have a premature
birth. It happens in many different ways, but one of the methods
they like to use is to have a premature birth because then the
child can be traumatized naturally. There are a whole bunch of
natural traumas that go along with being premature. Your skin is
very sensitive, you get catheters up your behind, and so forth.
They want the traumatization to begin very early on because they
want somebody who can trance out and dissociate from the pain.
You are probably familiar with the Indian fakirs - the holy men
in Indian who can walk on coals and stick pins in themselves and
sleep on beds of nails. How does it happen? Because they are
able to dissociate and go into a trance state, an altered state.
The Illuminati want to create individuals who are able to
dissociate very well, because that is part of the requirement to
have the ability to have a multiple personality.
And that is the purpose of the traumatization - is to create
Thatís one of the purposes.
What is the importance of dissociation within the total mind
Itís extremely important. You will hear a lot in recent times
about electronic mind control, and thatís being used to divert
people away from the more important issue of multiple
personality disorder or DID. The ability to create multiple
personalities that are programmed is extremely important. Itís
why they have the ability to be secret, itís why they are able
to do so much in secret. The electronic mind control - throwing
mental ideas into somebodyís brain which are foreign is not that
much of a threat. I have worked with quite a few victims of
electronic mind control and the majority, if not all of them,
are able to recognize that something is being beamed into their
heads that is foreign. But when you are dissociated and you have
amnesia between yourself and other parts of your mind, you donít
know what you yourself in your entirety are all about. For
instance I had a Christian minister who spent some time trying
to deprogram - he has come and visited here to work on his
programming. Here you have a Christian minister who, horrors of
horrors, discovers that he has a dissociated part of his mind
which has been functioning within the Illuminati and these other
parts of his mind are satanic. Imagine being a man of God and
finding out that you have parts of yourself that sacrifice
people ... (laughs). Thatís why this ability to dissociate into
multiple personalities is such a dangerous ability.
Maybe you can talk about the nature of dissociation and how that
is used for controlling somebody and also, as you mentioned,
being not aware of the different identities that are being used
for other purposes ...
People are familiar with dissociation and how the mind has the
ability to function on several tracks. For instance, if you are
at a party and engrossed in a conversation with somebody and you
are focused on what they are saying, and all of a sudden
somebody across the room says your name, and your mind
immediately switches and goes "oh they are calling me over
there", well thatís one evidence, and there are other ways to
realize that the mind is not one monolithic entity but it is
broken up into components. While you were engaged in that
conversation with somebody, there was one part of your mind
which was still listening to other things. It was a dissociated
part of the conscious mind; in other words, it was dissociated
from the conscious. You werenít conscious of that part of your
mind that was listening to the rest of the conversation but it
Hypnosis, trance and dissociation are just different aspects of
the same thing. The Illuminati have learned over the centuries
how to put people in different mental states and the information
is learned in the different states. To access that information
best, you need to go back to that particular state. People
realize what I am saying because when you get into a particular
situation thatís reminiscent of a previous experience, thatís
when your memory is best triggered. They go a lot further than
just using natural dissociation. They have learned how to create
amnesia walls within the mind and basically what they are doing
to the mind is the same as what we do to computers. In order to
make computers functional they had to figure out some way to
section off part of the computerís memory so the user could not
access that memory. It had to nest that memory. You will notice
that when you reboot your computer, the computer reboots itself
with memory that you werenít able to access. That memory was
dissociated - in human terms I guess you could say there is an
amnesia wall there.
They know how to build walls in the mind to mentally section off
the mind - and they do this through trauma. If you get a severe
enough trauma what the mind will do in order to continue
functioning is dissociate that trauma with an amnesia wall.
Letís say you were in war and your best friend had just gotten
blown to smithereens by artillery ... his guts are lying out.
Your mind may build amnesia walls around this event and you may
not be able to remember it. So the worse the trauma, the better
the amnesia wall.
The Illuminati take a small child about two years old, and they
begin traumatizing it with the worst traumas that are imaginable
so that they can create these amnesia walls. They find these
dissociated pieces of the mind which are just like in a sense
floppy disks, then they put in their programming to the
dissociated parts of the mind as to what they want that part to
become. Some of these parts they make into personalities and
they create MPD, DID and then while they are creating these
multiple personalities, they are programming them to be exactly
what they want them to be.
Before we get into what kinds of things they are used for, maybe
we can just go back and talk about how a person is conditioned
to be a total mind control slave, and pick it up when the child
is born. What happens there in terms of the conditioning.
The programmers like to say "this child is a piece of clay", and
they view themselves as the potterís wheel, of course. They are
very skilled in knowing how to take a child and work with that
childís mind to create what they want. We could talk all day
about this. One of the aspects we havenít gotten into yet is
their ability to go in and identify - they use EEGís -
backtracking and stepping outside of the Illuminati for a second
... Youíve got researchers like Hans Eisneck, who happened to
have been born in Germany and other researchers too who studied
how your average _______ potentials - these are brainwaves - can
be monitored and can be used to see what type of thinking that
brain is capable of. You can use EEGís to determine personality
and IQ. They have correlated their ability to study the human
brain with EEGís to John Gittingerís PAS tests. When a child is
born they begin testing its brain to see what is this personís
personality, what type of thinking is this person capable of,
what type of career should be plan out for this person. So they
take the natural bent of the mind, the natural capabilities of
the mind and they work with that. Likewise when they are doing
the traumatization and they are splitting the mind, they work
with the childís creativity and what those pieces of the mind
Typically at what age do these tests start - the EEGís and the
Personality Assessment Surveys ...
They do some of it while the child is still a fetus, and after
its born they start neonatal behavioral assessment skills, the
Bailey Scales and other tests, and within a short time, perhaps
by 18 months, they will be doing EEGís and determining what they
want to do. Once they determine what kind of life they want to
structure for this person, they begin the mind control to
structure the person for that career. This is why people like
myself who have a natural intelligence that has never been
connected to any of these bloodlines, we have such a hard time
out there in the competition because the Illuminati can take a
particular child and manipulate things from behind the scenes
and open all the right doors for this person, and they can get
them the grants and the schooling and everything they need and
adding impetus to this personís career is the mind control that
is steering them in that direction too. The end product is you
end up with somebody who is an engineer or a lawyer or a
politician who is very highly qualified for what they are doing.
Once they have controlled somebody, what kinds of things would
they be used to do for the Illuminati?
This has not been brought out very well by other people and
maybe itís just simply because they are not aware of it, but the
mind control is not just to create somebody who is a sexual
slave, but itís to infiltrate and control society across the
board. Understand that if you are going to control something
like establishment medicine - you have to have your people in
key positions because the weakest link the chain is going to
break. You canít have any weak links. They salt their people
throughout society in general, from the gutter to the castles.
An example of one group of people that they have created for
modern society are stalkers. In my recent book, Deeper Insights
Into the Illuminati Formula, I go into how they create stalkers
and why they create stalkers.
Letís say you are trying to control medicine because the
establishment medical system brings them in lots of money and
the medical establishment is very powerful, you have to have
control of the entire spectrum of things - the hospitals, what
kind of health care is going to be available, the type of
training these doctors are going to get, they have created
secret strike forces like the CCHI and the NCHF that keep people
in line. All of this requires mind control slaves being salted
in throughout the entire system. If you have one weak link - for
instance if you have one person who is practicing alternative
medicine and you donít control the judicial system - you are not
going to be able to convict, eg. this homeopathic doctor if you
donít control the judicial system. You have to have this vast
secret apparatus, and until people understand the mind control,
they canít understand how there could possibly be the type of
control that they have.
In order to understand how they are able to control these people
that they have put in key positions in society, we do have to
talk more about the techniques of mind control, and maybe we can
go into that now, of how they are able to effect control over
these people. For example, the trauma.
The trauma would be used for a whole number of reasons, but at
the very basic level when you traumatize somebody to the point
where they almost die, or actually to be more specific they
actually do "kill" these people but they know exactly how many
seconds they can allow them to be killed and still bring them
back to life. They manipulate near-death experiences, they have
that down to a science. That was the major reason that you had
the major concentration camp experiments by Mengele where people
were tortured. He belonged to an Illuminati bloodline and was
doing Illuminati research for mind control purposes, he did a
lot of research on twins. They found out exactly how much trauma
you could give different people before you killed them. What
that trauma does is it puts the brain back into a survival mode
and now I have to get into explaining that the popular concept
of the brain being one monolithic brain is real deceptive.
It has been kept very secret but the human brain is actually
seven brains. The first brain of the human mind - the medullah
and the pons - is called
the Reptilian Brain because it thinks
like a reptilian. If you are always traumatizing a person, you
keep them in their reptilian thinking or their survival based
thinking. Survival based thinking has certain characteristics.
At the very basic level, the trauma can be used to keep somebody
within their survival based thinking. It also creates fear and
there is a whole series that spiritually happen to a person when
they get caught up in fear.
If you think in terms of blackmail, the listener may remember
when he was a child and somebody grabbed your arm and twisted it
and said "say uncle" and of course your arm hurt, and you gave
in. Thatís a very simple type of mind control. The trauma and
the torture can be used in a very simple way - if you donít
comply it is going to hurt. Men who are slaves are
electroshocked in their genitals. It is very painful. Thatís a
very simple way of bringing someone in line. Then of course
there are ways the trauma is used to split the mind, fracture
them into thousands of pieces, create multiple personality
disorder. Thatís one of the techniques.
Just to stay on the topic of trauma, what is the importance of
maintaining that trauma in terms of keeping the conditioning
intact and keeping the state of dissociation intact?
They want to maintain a high level of trance and dissociative
behaviour in the victim, so they like to continue traumatizing
the person. As I brought out earlier, there is more involved
than just keeping the dissociative level high. Your also trying
to maintain the person to stay in the reptilian, survival based
thinking; trying to keep them having a spirit of fear
controlling their lives, so they donít slack off. They secretly
train the parents of the children who are being programmed on
how to abuse their children so they keep their children very
dissociative. Not only that, if the children are going to some
established religious institute, eg. Catholic church,
Episcopalian church, their priests, their clergymen have been
trained in how to abuse the children. This is why you have such
a big modern day problem within the Catholic church. So many of
the priests abusing children and the lawsuits brought against
this church, and some people have said they think it is going to
financially bankrupt the church - the reason why so much of this
is going on is for purposes of mind control.
Have these priests and clergymen been coerced to participate in
this, or are they part of these Illuminati families? What is
There are a lot of different reasons why someone is a pedophile.
One of the problems within
the Catholic church is that there
havenít been normal outlets for sexual activity provided for
priests and nuns, and then they are given these subversive ways
to release their sexuality. Some of them are actually secret satanists and this is part of the reward they receive from a
secret coven. There are various reasons as to why - some just go
along because thatís what everybody else is doing and it is
allowed until people put their foot down and say we are not
going to tolerate this. I can talk about a number of cases where
people did put their foot down and say we are not going to
tolerate this abuse of our child by the clergy, and the
hierarchy that should have penalized this person simply promoted
them and sent them to some other part of the country. Why they
do it? God knows why each person has become an abuser.
Can you explain how the dissociation has been used in terms of
programming and the structure of that programming?
The victim of the mind control has had their mind split into
many personalities, actually far more personalities than what
the people in the therapeutic community generally realize. Cisco
who I brought out of the Illuminati has very standard
programming in many ways, although she has unique features to
her system of personalities. She had a very standard grid of
13x13x13 alter personalities. Each one of those personalities
has been given a separate history, separate personality which
has its own likes and dislikes. What they did was turn what was
one person into a whole city of people and the only way the mind
of the slave can function is if it relies upon the master to
give it stability. Imagine if your mind was a whole series of
competing persons, each with their own ideas, likes, dislikes.
The only way to bring some order out of the chaos would be to
have some controlling entity ordering that chaos. Some of the
slaves have reached the point of becoming aware that they are
multiples and on the deeper levels they realize that they need
the mind control for their minds not to break down into total
craziness. Another way of looking at it is - what the Illuminati
are doing is creating controlled insanity for these victims of
the mind control to endure the horrific trauma thatís given to
them, they have to isolate their memories of that trauma and the
parts of the mind that have to pick up some of that trauma -
some of those parts, in essence, I hate to use the word "crazy",
but they are taking the garbage thatís happening and the mind is
shuffling and isolating it. If those walls of dissociation break
down, then the other parts of the mind are going to have to deal
with a lot of garbage.
Why do you think they needed so many identities to be in place?
If you are going to invest the time to create a robot, you are
going to incorporate as many capabilities as possible and you
want to compartmentalize so everything is secret. One of the
reasons why intelligence agencies function so well - eg. CIA -
is that they compartmentalize everything. You only "know" on a
regional basis. They do the same with these peopleís minds. A
slave may function on many different levels. Heís got his front
- they create the best front possible - his or her everyday life
- but then they may want to use that person for drug smuggling,
money laundering, carrying messages, performing satanic rituals,
producing porn movies, assassinating somebody, spying on
somebody - and then youíve got internal jobs too. Going back to
what I said earlier, remembering how the mind has been fractured
into many dissociated pieces, and essentially a whole city of
people has been made out of those pieces. In order for that city
of people to function, you have to have different jobs. You will
have some of the older personalities taking care of baby
personalities internally in the personís mind - you have
functions - gatekeepers, hierarchy alters that are controlling
other alters - a hierarchy of personalities. Thatís a whole
science in itself - how to structure dissociated parts of the
You mentioned the one structure, 13x13x13 grid. Are there other
structures used that you are aware of?
There are many different structures. It all depends on the whim
and fancy of the programmer as he shatters the victimís mind, he
can reassemble that mind however he wants to. He can use a
sphere - they create systems within systems too. A common system
within a system is the cabalistic tree of life.
Do you see similarities in the survivors that you have been
working with in terms of the structures?
Oh yes. Thatís one of the things - you can have a therapist in
one state, and they will not have know anything about MPD or DID
and they will start working with the victim and call another
therapist for help and taking notes. The victim will say, "I
drew these pictures. I donít know what they mean." "I am
fascinated with Star Trek (or the Wizard of Oz) (Mickey Mouse)".
The therapist will call another therapist and ask what they make
of this. If this other therapist is experienced, they may say
"oh hey - Iíve got somebody who is just like that." All across
the country, there are therapists and then people like myself
who is a minister working with these people who are running into
the same patterns time and time again, the same structures. Like
I was saying, working with people who were in the Illuminati,
working with people that did the programming itself, is really
helping my learning curve too in terms of the structures that
are built in.
Another common structure you will see is a lot of mirror
imaging, thatís a more of a technique than a structure.
What do you mean by that? The mirroring of an alter?
Mirroring of all kinds of things. Thatís part of the technique
Thatís the purpose of using this mirroring, for example if a
therapist came across one alter, dealt with, there may have been
a mirror of that ...
A lot of the therapists think they are dealing with a particular
personality but they are dealing with its mirror image. The
systems are programmed, created so that if somebody starts
working with them there are all these defensive mechanisms that
are triggered. One of the defensive mechanisms is to have mirror
image alters take the place of who the therapist is trying to
work with. So the therapist thinks they have done something but
they have actually just played games. Mirror images of things
within the programming itself so that when one particular
personality tries to work on their mindís programming, the mind
is so confusing about what they still internally - that they
canít figure out their own mind.
The best manager is somebody who doesnít have to spend a lot of
time giving instructions to a person. If you are a slave master
and you have to be constantly telling that slave what to do, and
constantly correcting it, and making sure itís doing its job,
you become a slave to the slave.
What you want to do is create a human robot which will be
self-directed and self-correcting so they create hierarchies of
alters within the person and one of the things they do is create
alter personalities within the personís mind who think they are
the programmer themselves.
So, Ewen Cameron who was a programmer - his victim would have
personalities within them that would think they are Ewen
Cameron. Therefore they would carry out the abuse of other
personalities as they would perceive Ewen Cameron would do it.
Thatís one use of mirrors. Another use of mirrors is if you are
teaming two slaves together, letís say you and are teamed. I
would have personalities in me that think they are you and you
would have personalities created in you that think they are me
and it would further the binding process.
Generally speaking, with people who have this kind of mind
control, how many personalities are you talking about?
A lot. Cisco has 30,000 standard alters and then there are lots
of other dissociated pieces too. That would not be abnormal. The
small part of the therapeutic community thatís trying to address
DID generally work with a few front personalities. There are
number of books out there written by people with MPD where the
therapist came in and worked with five or six front
personalities. The Illuminati step back and allow them to
integrate some front personalities and the person is told by the
therapist "you are now integrated, youíre fine" and they left
therapy, and everybody is happy. The victim thinks they are free
of their MPD, the therapist has made a lot of money and gotten
famous over some book they have written, and the Illuminati is
happy because these are just front alters that have been
stabilized. The system of alters are far more complex than
What are the dangers involved in dealing with therapy with a
mind control victim, particularly when a therapist may be
unaware of the techniques and structures of mind control?
I have to caution people that some of the best minds of the 20th
century - we have hundreds, if not thousands, of the best minds
who have spent many, many years figuring out how to build these
mechanisms into the mind slaves to protect the programming. In a
sense what it is like - imagine you are going in to try and hack
a computer - imagine a system that is set up so that if someone
is not an approved user comes into the room and looks at the
computer, the computer shuts down, the computer explodes. Thatís
really what you are looking at in trying to work with a mind
control victim - they have a lot of suicide programming so that
if the front alters, the personalities that hold the body day in
and day out - if they were ever to find out they were in mind
control, or that they were a multiple personality, they would
commit suicide. You have all kinds of defensive programs. Not
only is the computer programmed to explode if you walk into the
room, but if you touch the keyboard as an unauthorized user,
again the computer is programmed to explode. Every step of the
way there are backup programs to deceive, to destroy. It is not
easy. It is something the novice does not want to get into. Itís
something that takes a lot of time and patience and skill, and a
lot of love for the victims too. One has to really abhor what is
going on to have the motivation that it takes to work with such
a complex problem.
What would you recommend for therapists wanting to know more
about how this is done, and how they can help heal the victims?
I strongly recommend our three books - I co-authored these 3
books with Cisco Wheeler. The one I already mentioned, "The
Illuminati Formula Used to Create a Total Mind Controlled
Slave". The sequel to that which is 620 pages, "Deeper Insights
into the Illuminati Formula", part 1 is how the control comes
about and part 2 is how the help comes about. Weíve got a lot of
good information in there laying the foundation as to whatís
happened, and how to begin to unravel what has happened.
In terms of your own work, how much success have you had in
working with victims of mind control?
The problem that the mind control presents is overwhelming, and
there are countless therapeutic issues, so there is no end to
the different issues that can be worked on. Cisco and I have
freely given of our time to help any victim of mind control in
whatever way we could. The degree of therapeutic success depends
on a number of things. One, it depends upon the situation the
victim puts themselves in. If they are willing to extract
themselves from their everyday life and go somewhere where it is
safe, they are going to do a lot more - work more therapeutic
issues, because the mind of a mind controlled slave is not going
to let its guard down as long as itís not safe. This gets back
into understanding how the reptilian mind and the survival based
thinking can override other areas of the mind. When you become
deathly frightened for your life, your survival instincts take
precedence over the other parts of your brain. If you have been
traumatized your entire life, your survival based thinking is
your primary method of thinking and it doesnít take much to
throw you into the fear based survival based thinking. So the
first criteria for doing successful work with a mind control
victim is to get them someplace safe. You could say that 99.9%
of the victims of mind control have never been given that.
Therapists do not set things up for survivors or victims of mind
control to be in any safe situation. When I say safe, I mean
they have to be safe 24 hours a day.
Cisco and I have been able to work with victims to the degree
the situation allowed. There is no end to the work we could do
if the right set-up presented itself. This is why I was hoping
to create a deprogramming centre. There was a man who was CIA
who was very horrified at what the government intelligence
agencies had been doing to people, and I have a friend whom this
CIA man knew who also works at providing therapy for mind
control victims. This CIA man wrote into his will to give a
number of millions of dollars to my clients for the purpose of
doing therapy work with mind control victims. And then my friend
in turn was going to give me a couple of million dollars so I
could start a deprogramming centre. This manís will when he
died, was in the Oklahoma Federal Building, and the only copy of
the will that we know about was in there. So I was rather upset
when the building exploded, because that short-circuited our
plans to build a couple of deprogramming centres. Short of
building some place that is safe and that is staffed with
competent people, it is extremely difficult to accomplish much.
Even when I have accomplished positive therapy with a victim,
all that it takes for the other side to do is physically grab
them and reprogram them. This is what has happened for me over
the past years in terms of trying to help victims, and as a
warning to the public and the therapeutic community at large, at
this point not a whole lot has really been accomplished to
thwart the mind control.
Now in the optimal situation, to what degree have you been able
to free the victims of the control?
Given the optimal situation where we have someone who is safe,
we can take down the mind control. We can do some serious
re-structuring and make some really serious headway in helping a
person. We can do some significant spiritual work with them.
There can be some integrating work begun. There are all kinds of
things that can happen. On the flip side of it, is the work ever
finished? I donít think it is, because the damage that has been
done is so extensive, and you never know as a therapist that you
have succeeded in finding every dissociated fragment of the
mind. Remember there are thousands of fragments of the mind
because the traumatization is so prolonged over so many years,
and is so horrific, that you can never be sure that you have
gotten all of the dissociated pieces, and each of those
dissociated pieces is probably going to have programming
attached to it.
What is your sense of how many people have been affected by
A very conservative estimate - I shouldnít even say estimate
because I have computed it from about seven different angles - a
conservative figure is 2 million Americans have been programmed
with trauma based total mind control.
And thatís just in the USA?
And is it your sense that this is going on world-wide?
Oh indeed yes, it is. More with your primary political powers.
Youíve got programming going on in Europe, Russia, the U.S.A. -
those are your primary areas of programming but in other places
I would like to talk about some of the other techniques now of
mind control. How has electricity played a role?
Electric shock has been a standard part of the abuse, and it
serves as a form of trauma. And stun guns are a standard item to
keep the slaves in line and also to erase their memories. They
might use perhaps a 120,000 DC volt stun gun to erase and
compartmentalize fragments, memories of a slave who has just
been used. When you shock a person, it destroys the short-term
memory. It fragments it, 24 hours either way of the event. They
can also use the shock treatments like Ewen Cameron to splinter
the mind so thatís electro-shock. Elecricity has been used in
terms of implements or devices that have been implanted into
people and also used in equipment that will throw thoughts into
a peronís mind. You have microwave towers going up vectoring in
ELF waves into peopleís minds. So electricity is being used in a
lot of high tech ways, or electromagnetic waves are being used
in a lot of high techn ways ...
They have different machines - EDOM electronic dissolution of
memory where they wipe out your memory; harmonic machines that
are used which some of your speakers have probably talked about
- these machines can be used for the deprogramming work too.
Electricity is also used in the flip way in that since the human
brain gives off frequencies, they go in and scan a personís
personal frequencies they are giving off. There is a prime freq
- which is the primary frequency a person gives off and that can
be used to identify them from a distance. They know the
different frequencies that the brain uses. Coming at it from a
different angle, if you think of the brain when it creates a
particular thought, it gives off particular frequencies. They
simply created particular thoughts within a person and monitored
electrical impulses along with that thought, fed that into
computers. I am simplifying what they did - but basically thatís
what they have done to decode being able to read what their
brain is thinking. If you monitor the frequencies that are being
given off by a person, then you can monitor what their thoughts
are. So not only can you throw particular thoughts into peopleís
heads, but they can monitor their thoughts too.A lot of the
monitoring and instilling of thoughts, etc. are being done with
Can we just go back to electroshock. You mentioned that it is
used to erase memories perhaps of the identity of the people who
are doing the programming. But donít they run the risk of
erasing the programming itself? How do they deal with that?
This gets back into understanding how the programming is put in,
and the level at which it is put in. Remember we talked about
dissociated states? The primary programming that is put in is
put in at a comatose level. There are different levels that you
can program somebody to - if you start out with an adult, for
instance, the CIAís nomenclature is mind control Level 5.
Somebody who has been given mind control to the 5th level
generally has some cover story like for Roseanne Barr - she had
an automobile accident apparently as a teenager. They take these
people in and they are taken down to a comatose level where
their bodies are comatose for quite a long period of time, and
the programming is put in at an extremely deep level. At a level
where your mind is regulating your heartbeat. The programming is
put in and it is nested in at an extremely deep level. When they
destroy short-term memory with electroshocking, thatís not even
coming close to the deep programs - that is just affecting the
Have they deliberately regulated the amount of electricity in
terms of achieving a desired effect?
Oh yeah. Everything is extremely scientific. This is why they
had to do a lot of the horrific testing during WWII in the
concentration camps. You just donít traumatize a person
indiscriminately or you will kill them. You have to know what
you are doing. They have doctors and heart monitoring equipment.
The fundamental programming is done in hospital settings, or
hospital-type settings. Thatís why a lot of the VA hospitals
here in the USA - actually all of the VA hospitals - have been
used for programming. A lot of the other civilian hospitals have
also had particular wards set up where they were able to do
programming. They are monitoring heartbeat, they know just how
far to push them. When they start going into a near-death
experience they know exactly when they can electroshock them to
bring them back to life, etc. It is very skilled. They have to
be very skilled in the drugs they use, how and when they
administer them, what they do when the person is under drugs.
What they do is not haphazard.
So a lot of experimentation has gone into refining these
Can you tell us if you know anything about the development of
brain implant technology and that has been used for mind
There are six different types of implants. Audio implants that
are used to allow the victim to hear something. Body
manipulation implants that are put in to manipulate the body in
some way, perhaps to release a hormone or to keep them from
getting pregnant or to torture them, or something like that.
Then you have a visual holographic implant which will give a
holographic image to the person. You have implants that are
mimics or brain link implants that if I want to directly
download something to the brain, those are very secret implants.
The implants are not used across the board with all mind
controlled slaves. There are select groups that are receiving
the implants and like the mimics, implants are only going to a
select group. Then youíve got your torture and muscle
stimulating implants. Then the one everybody hears about - the
tracking and ID implants - that everybody is so concerned about.
Those are the implants that were given to a lot of American
soldiers in Desert Storm. They were told they needed implants so
that the global positioning system could keep track of them so
they wouldnít get lost in the desert.
I am curious about the actual implants themselves in terms of
how they are implanted and approximately the size through the
development of the technology?
The development has gotten really high tech. You have several
types of development here that need to be brought out. One,
thatís called "nanobots" - nanotechnology which are tiny little
robots that range from 10-1/1000 billionth of a meter. The word
"nano" means billionth - we are talking extremely microscopic
robots here that are able to replicate themselves. Molecular
size robots. Possibly the listeners have heard of the Scanning
Tunnelling microscope? There are different names for it, but it
is a little device that can actually see a single atom, and
actually pick up atoms and move them. Thatís used to develop
these nanobots which are robots that can self replicate. You
have fibre optics that have been developed and you will have
some victims that if they get rid of their fibre optics - the
fibre optic that is stuck into the victim often looks like a
What typically are these fibre optic implants used for?
Good question. I wish I really knew the answer for that. Fibre
optic glass will carry signals, so in broad I can say the
implants are being used to transmit signals, I know that much.
But I donít know all the ins and outs of what kinds of signals
are being sent. I have one victim of mind control who had been
sitting in a restaurant - it is sort of analogous to a blowgun
where they have hit her with something that looks just like a
little hair and the fiber optic filament embeds itself in her
skin. While she is sitting there eating, they have shot this
filament into her. Fortunately she noticed they had done this,
and pulled it out. I had female victims who had fiber optics
that was disguised as hair that were put on their bodies. I
donít know the full role of the fiber optics but I know it is
involved in communications. One of the more dangerous
developments are your organic bioprocessors. These are molecular
computers that are made up of DNA material. Youíve got DNA
templates and you can also have carbon chains that are used.
What they do is - with this biomaterial that is made into a
mini-computer, they will link that to a virus and viruses
oftentimes have a particular area of the body they like to
migrate to. For instance a neurotropic virus will migrate to the
nervous system or a dermatropic virus will migrate to the skin,
pneuomtropic virus will go to the lungs. They attack their
little organic viral processor to this virus. How do you get a
virus into a person? There are a dozen different ways, it is
easy to get a virus into a victimís/hostís body. So once these
viruses migrate to that area of the body they prefer, youíve got
a tiny little implant that is then doing whatever function it is
programmed to do. These are extremely difficult to locate.
I have noticed in victims that have the virus implants that
there will be a sort of central control implant a lot of times
put in the bottom base of the neck. The central command implant
will be receiving external signals and then will in turn monitor
the body suit of implants. Some of the victims of these implants
seem to have gotten some relief from being able to kill the
viruses. There are some alternative medical methods that might
be suggested to the victims that could take out these bio
For some of the larger implants, have victims been able to
locate and remove these kinds of implants somehow?
Yes. There have been a number of victims that have been
identified - have been able to take x-rays, have been able to get
other types of scanning mechanisms. There were three victims of
electronic mind control that managed to, as a group, get into an
Anacoic Chamber and get results when their signals were
pinpointed as to source. They had to smuggle the paperwork out
from the lab in their bras because the lab technicians were
afraid of getting into trouble. Different victims of electronic
mind control have managed to get some proof or have actually
pulled some of it out. There are some doctors that actually have
some of the implants. There are a few clean surgeons that are
willing to help victims. I might mention the word Syntel here
... thatís an important word for people to be familiar with in
understanding implants. Syntel is something that has been
discussed by our government repeatedly in some of their
conferences. You will hear the military in some of their
semi-secret conferences discussing Syntel. Thatís short for
synthetic telepathy which means sending to victims voices and
thoughts - so these victims of Syntel are people who are
receiving voices and thoughts electronically.
That seems to be able to be used in a couple of different ways
in terms of control, but also in terms of the situation with
people claiming they are hearing voices who are often labelled
schizophrenic or psychotic ... it seems to be a way of
discrediting these people.
Something that was developed and used during the space program
which is called biomedical telemetry - these are transmitters
and receivers located at the base of the skull which record the
body functions and the brain waves, and send it back to some
computer somewhere. In fact in working with victims of
electronic mind control I can say with certainty that is what is
being done is that there are computers that are programmed with
artificial intelligence that are their handlers. Rather than
having a human handler day in and out, three shifts of human
handlers controlling the victim of electronic mind control, they
have computers with A.I. Then if the victim does something that
throws the computer, the computer will signal a human to come
and get involved. Itís been kind of interesting, the stories
that victims have told me about how they outsmarted the
computers that were trying to handle them.