The 4th Apollo Astronaut / The Secret Astronaut Corps
John Lear: It’s the best kept secret, I mean the best. Now figure all
the guys in Mission Control... they were all like between 25 and 35.
It’s been 40 years, so now they’re between 65 and 75, so a lot of them
are still living.
Now, I don’t know whether they keep up with what’s
Kerry Cassidy: You’re saying they knew what happened?
J: Oh, absolutely. I mean, they were all there. They heard. I don’t know
if you’ve seen my stuff on the internet about...
J: ...what I assume Gus Grissom said:
“OK assholes, you killed us, we’re
dead, the fire could have been prevented and you didn’t do it.”
He had a
long time to say that and all
the Apollo records, all this stuff, the
accident stuff, and a lot of things happened and the emails that I’ve
gotten from Clark on it, you know, are very circumspect, very careful
about what he says.
But in my mind, he’s been trying, totally, to tell
what happened, without saying so in so many words. And basically what I
asked him was,
“What was the name of the fourth astronaut?”
And he never
gave it to me, but I found out from other sources who it was. So…
K: Are you at liberty to say?
J: No, and the reason is because I want somebody to come to me and say,
”I know who it was,” and then say the name.
K: Wow, Cool. If we think we know, we could email you, maybe?
Grissom, White and Chaffee
J: Absolutely. So what’s so interesting
about... the reason they couldn’t talk about the 4th astronaut... and of
course, when the fire happened NSA cordoned off everything for 45
minutes while they took that body out. And then they opened it up and
then that’s when the official investigation started. Read through all
You can see where that 45 minutes fit into there, where
they took that body out. Now the reason they didn’t want anyone to know
about the body is because he was part of the secret astronaut corps. So…
now, if anybody had found out about that body, they would have
wondered... who was he, what was his name, what did he do? How come he
wasn’t listed here? It would have exposed the entire cover-up.
why they couldn't ....
K: So that secret astronaut corps was a huge secret. I interviewed
McKinnon and he tapped into that.
J: He was telling us all about it! I don’t know why people don’t put
K: Yeah, that’s beautiful, that’s beautiful.
J: Gary’s got the whole story there. It was so interesting that Gary
would come out at the same time that I uncovered the 4th astronaut.
K: Oh, really? At the same time?
J: Well, it was the same timeframe, plus or minus a couple of months.
So, Gary…. boy, I’d sure like to talk to that guy. He talks about the
non-terrestrial officers and… I mean, the story just fits together. We
are so frigging dense, you know, if we can’t put that together.
K: (Laughs) Absolutely. So we also want to talk a little bit about
And what you know about Dulce? And I know that people are saying, you
the Bennewitz story just didn’t happen. And then I know that you
confirmed that it did, that Bennewitz was correct.
J: He was, and I got into that when I first got into this UFO deal. I
ended up in Crestone, Colorado with Linda Howe and there was about 10 of
us there. Somebody had donated a condo in Crestone that had been used by
the Aspen Institute for their get-togethers and studies. And we met for
three or four days there and talked about what’s going on, what should
we do, about the state of Ufology and how each one could contribute. And
I ended up leaving there and driving with Linda... and, oh, while we
were there, Tom Adams... Do you know who Tom is?
J: He was one of the chargers on weird UFO stuff, mutilations, all that
stuff in 1987, ‘88. He ran, put out that flyer called “Stigmata.” It was
really something. So anyway, he handed me a note. He said, “John,
somebody called me from Las Vegas. And you might want to follow this up
because I can’t do it.”
And… it was a hand-written note about a place called Dulce and the
person knew somebody that worked there and talked about Dulce. And the
thing I remember about the note was it says, “Hallways, down hallways
that went on forever.” Boy, this captured my imagination. So anyway, I
go with Linda Howe. We go down to Albuquerque and we look up Ernie
Edwards and we talk with Ernie Edwards.
K: Is he still alive, by the way?
J: You know, I don’t know. But he was so forthright and, to me, so
honest. He said he believed Bennewitz. You know, he talked about during
that time when our radar was shut down for a long period. And I said,
”What do you think happened?” And he said, “I think we brought a black
ship through there and they didn’t want it on radar.” And I said, “How
can you, a colonel – an acting colonel in the Air Force – say something
like that?” And he said, “That’s what I believe.”
So anyway, and then we talked about all kinds of stuff and then Linda
and I went down to… drove down to Roswell, and that was an interesting
trip. We’re driving down to Roswell, and we’re about 10 miles north of
Corona and here comes this A-7, just coming down and buzzing us and
everything. And I looked at her and said, “Linda, how can this be
happening to us?” I know those A-7s.
They’re part of the F117A Stealth
Fighter squadron up at Tonopah. Anyway, we turn off at Corona, and we go
over this little road, then a dirt road over towards the main road that
comes down from the highway to Roswell. We get just before the turnoff
that goes down to Mac Brazel’s ranch, and we’re bumping along and here’s
one dead cow and then another dead cow, then another dead cow...
K: Oh my god...
J: I mean, there’s 30 dead cows there. So we go over to the dead cows
and there’s no obvious sign of mutilation. So we go on the road down
toward Mac Brazel, what used to be his ranch, and talk to the farmer
there and he said,
“Yeah, well, we don’t know what happened. We
contacted the state veterinarian’s office about [this particular
disease, whatever it was].”
Anyway, later Linda contacted someone who
found out, no it couldn’t have been that disease because there would
have been a 50 mile cordon around there. So that was just one of the
little interesting things. So then we went down and we talked with
Clifford Stone, who I know.
K: Oh… do you.
J: Then I went back up...
Clifford Stone, does he know about the Dulce situation as well?
J: Oh yeah. Clifford, he knows everything. So then I went out... I’m
thinking, I’m trying to remember whether I went and stayed at
Bennewitz’s house before this happened or after, but at some point I
went and spent two days at his house with him and his wife. I listened
to their story, spent a lot of time with them, looked at all his
pictures, all the stuff showing flying saucers taking off in the Manzano
Weapons Storage area, and landing, you know.
They were great 8x10
prints. A guy named Chris Lambright had them last that I knew. I was
going to steal them from Chris but I gave them back to him. I have one
or two 4x5s of those.
K: Oh, do you?
J: (nods yes) Anyway, and then I left Bennewitz and he gave me the big
X-ray of the little thing that the girl had in her neck and that I gave
to him while I was there and I don’t know what he ever did with it.
anyway, I end up in Dulce, call up Gabe Valdez, say I’m here, he says:
“Now, I’ve got patrol tonight between 10:00 and 6 in the morning. You
want to go with me?” I said, “Yeah.”
So he comes over and I say,
John Lear.” And he says, “I know who you are. I remember you were here
20 years ago in a Lear jet.”
And I said “Really?” He said: “Yeah, you
brought in steaks for Dean Martin and his girlfriend.”
And I remember,
yeah, I was flying charter. He jogged my memory. I had been chartered
out of Van Nuys to bring in fresh steaks and Dean Martin’s girlfriend to
a movie that Dean was filming in Dulce, and Gabe remembered me from
K: That’s amazing.
J: So we got in his car and that was the most interesting eight hours
winding around on these little roads. It was black as heck, you know,
and we talked about Bennewitz, Ernie Edwards... ah, what’s the guy’s
name... Doty, Moore, the whole thing. That was just really an
interesting drive. We stopped and had some green chili at this little
Anyway, I got some sleep the next day and then I had this
rented car and I tried to go up the Archuleta Mesa because what I wanted
to do was see the spot where the nuclear craft had crashed, where Bennewitz said it crashed, because Gabe said,
“As far as I know, it did.
It was obvious. You could see the tree that it hit. We found a
government pen up there. There was all kinds of evidence that it
But it was in the winter and I had this 2-wheel drive and I
tried to go up this back road up to the mesa and I nearly went off into
the canyon, so I never got up there.
K: So that wasn’t, like, guarded at that time?
J: No. I don’t think it is today.
K: Oh really? That’s interesting…
J: …I don’t know. I can show you the place where I went to go up there.
Anyway, I got back to Vegas and made contact with Bruce and this person
tells me the whole thing about.... was his name Castello? What was his
last name? The guy who worked at Dulce?
K: Yeah, that sounds right.
B: There’s Castello, and there’s Schneider. They both came out on the
J: We talked for days, weeks, months. And this person gave me pencil
drawings of either what she had seen in the video or what Castello had
described to her. Those ended up in what were
the Dulce papers. Those
were my drawings. As I mentioned on some thread the other day, the Dulce
papers text is posted on the internet and that’s what I typed from what
the person Castello told. That’s my typewriter.
That typewriter’s out in
the garage. It’s an IBM, what they call Executive that had proportional
J: And, you know, those were my drawings. I made ink drawings from the
pencil drawings. I still have the pencil drawings. I think the ink
drawings I gave to Val. I haven’t seen them around but they may be
around, I don’t know. I have so many files out in the garage, legal
files, four drawer cabinets, two or three just full of this stuff.
K: Now, why do you think you’re left alone? Why do you think you know so
much, number one. And why do you think that the government leaves you
J: They don't bother anybody with second hand information. They got Phil
because he was there and I will forever rue the day for not giving Phil
Schneider enough attention, because he was right here, he sat right here
and told me his story. And it’s not that I didn’t believe it. It’s that,
you know, it’s yeah, well, maybe, you know.
And it’s too bad because he
did have the story and I wish I had given him more time than I did. And
that happened with another person I didn’t give that much attention to: Uhouse,
Bill Uhouse. He came here years ago and told me all that stuff.
And there’s a guy I didn’t believe until later when that, what’s his
name? The S-4 guy?...
K: You’re talking about Dan?
J: Dan!... until I sat here and watched two or three hours of the tapes,
and, I thought, you know, that guy’s been there. Nobody can make that
Dan Burisch story is simple but it’s complex. He was there. He
did work there. I listened to George Knapp the other day. I read his
stuff on ATS and he is so down on Dan Burisch. It’s unfortunate.
K: Did you see my interview with Dan? I just did an interview with him.
It’s posted right now. You should take a look at it. It’s actually
almost two and a half hours of intense testimony.
J: .... describe Area 51 and S-4. There’s no question in mind that he
was there. But there’s something that’s happening to Dan, something
they’re doing with him, and it all fits into
K: You think so?
J: I think that, you know, it’s a big long-range disinformation program.
But the bottom line is Burisch was up there, he worked up there, and
it’s really interesting. It’s too bad people, you know, when they look
at these stories, it’s either right or it’s wrong.
J: You can’t know that there’s some parts that are correct and some
parts can be disinformation.
J: They want it left, right, bad, good. It’s too bad. But George Knapp,
I’ve known him for years. He’s got some good ideas, he’s done some
tremendous work but he always seems to be about three years behind me.
It takes a while to understand, to get into this stuff.
How John got into UFO Research
K: Well, how did you get into research? Because you were a pilot. You
had a lot of other things going on, but what was the trigger that really
got you deep into this stuff?
J: I said that on the internet I told what happened. I was across town
with a friend of mine named Al Newall. We were shooting buddies
together. We met in those days... IPSIC was a big international
practical shooting congress and we spent a lot of time together. And I
was over at his house and there was a book on the table called Missing
Time by Budd Hopkins. I picked this thing up and I said, “This is kind
See, I’d always been kind of interested in saucers, but
not that much. It turns out my dad was right there. I mean, my mom had a
crush on Hoyt Vandenberg, one of the MJ-12. He was at the house. So was
Jimmy Doolittle. Dad was on the board of the Lovelace Clinic. Randy
Lovelace was a surgeon in Wright Patterson when
the Roswell thing
They sent him to Albuquerque to form the Lovelace Institute.
The Lovelace Institute was where they did the autopsies of the bodies. I
mean, the whole group was, you know, my dad, Jimmy Doolittle, Hoyt
Vandenberg, all those guys were together.
K: Oh my god… Is your dad still alive?
J: No, he died in 1978.
J: He used to talk about this all the time but not in too much detail.
He went down to Bogota in 1953 and made an announcement that he thought
UFOs were real and made a thing and of course,
MJ-12 came down on Bill –
“You can’t say this stuff.” “Well I didn’t tell anything more than
anybody else did.” “Yeah, but Bill, you can’t do it.”
Now, apparently he
was into the antigravity stuff. There’s a video floating around, 3
minutes on the internet, that shows my dad giving a lecture, with my mom
standing behind him, with pictures of saucers on the blackboard at the
Monson Institute to a group of scientists.
J: There is also more in that video that shows scientists working on
balsa wood and tissue, things of UFOs, doing I don’t know what, but
there’s a calendar and it’s obvious that somebody is trying to tell us
something. On the calendar, days are x’d, marked off. And it’s obvious
that whoever made this videotape is telling us something important, that
something important was being developed or had to be developed. So...
K: So you saw this book on this table of your friend...
J: Yes, Missing Time. So I picked it up and I read it and it just
absolutely hit me: This stuff is real. It’s real. It’s going on right
now. So I’m thinking this is like ‘85 or something. At the exact same
time we had a reunion of southeast Asia pilots here in Las Vegas and I
ran into one of the Ravens.
You know who the Ravens were: sheep-dipped
guys that flew in Laos.
Greg Wilson was a Raven and I got to talk to
“Hey, where you been?” You know.
He says, “I was at Bentwaters.”
“Were you there in1980?”
He said, “I was there. I didn’t see it land but
I know the guys who did.”
I said, “You mean it’s real?”
He said, “Yeah
John, it’s real.”
So then at that exact time I ended up, I was based, in New York for this
airline, and I called Budd Hopkins and I said, “I’d like to talk to
you.” “OK.” I came back from a trip in Europe that was crazy. I had my
big suitcase and my flight bag and something else and instead of going
to the apartment I lived at and dropping it all off I went to Budd’s
house. So I ring the doorbell and he opens it up and he says, “John
Lear?” “Yeah.” He says, “What’s all that?” He was afraid I was going to
come in and move in with him!
So anyway I spent the evening with him and he did a regression. And he
said, ”You can’t be this interested and not be involved.” And he didn’t
find anything, but anyway that started my adventures with Budd Hopkins.
All this all happened at the same time. It was... those were crazy
K: So you know Bill Cooper. You seem to have known just about everybody
who was anybody at the time.
J: Yeah. I was working Paranet at the time. Jim Spicer ran
put my hypothesis on Paranet. Then Bill Cooper called and said, “I can
vouch for – I forget what he said, 50 per cent, or 100 per cent of what
John Lear says” and so I invited
Bill Cooper up.
He came up, we talked
and he told me... At those times Bill was totally sane and rational. He
told me that he was the guy at Pearl Harbor who set up the camera and
got the documents out of the safe for the briefings of the high level
Navy guys who’d go through. Five years later he’s an intelligence
officer giving the briefing himself! He wasn’t!
He was just the guy in
the office that set up the projector, and he did have the key to the
safe. He did read all that stuff. But later he got what we call “UFO
disease.” And UFO disease is something that we get... we are just so in
demand as speakers and we’ve already told whatever we know, so now we
got to make up a little more to keep the interest.
Being in demand like
that is, it’s addictive, so you make up a little more and that’s called
UFO disease and that’s what happened to Bill. He started making stuff
Bob Lazar and Area 51
J: About this time, Bob... I met Bob here in the summer of 1988.
K: Bob Lazar?
J: Yeah. Bob sat right with Gene Huff. Gene Huff had called me and said,
“Hey, can I get a copy of your UFO stuff?” And I said, ”Gene, I’m out of
it, my wife’s going nuts.” I said, “I’ve just dropped everything.” So he
said, “Well, in case you ever need an appraisal on your house maybe we
can work a deal out.” I said, “You’re an appraiser?”
At that time I
needed an appraisal to get a second [mortgage], because I was totally
out of money. He said, “Yeah.” So I said, “Well listen, I’ll give you
all my stuff if you’ll appraise my house.” And from that day on he’s
always held that against me because he had no idea how big this place
J: He claims he got the short end of the deal. But when he came over,
the guy that was holding the measuring tape was Bob Lazar.
K: Oh my god…
J: And so, I’m looking over his resume... when I’m talking he handed it
to me. That’s when I saw, you know, the degree from MIT and the degree
from Cal Tech. But all that stuff, along with Bennewitz’s and some of
his photos, were stolen.
K: Out of your house?
J: Yeah. Out of here. I mean, they spent... who knows how much time they
spent in this office digging stuff out of my files.
J: All kinds of stuff was missing, as was at Bob’s house. The people we
knew at, it wasn’t called Sprint, the telephone company, you know, found
Bob’s house was wired. This house was wired.
K: Do you comb this house now? Do you comb your house for bugs and
things like that, or do you just not bother anymore?
J: No. I don’t bother. But the telephone guy here that was sent out used
to do a lot of switching around of phones for my teenage daughters. So
one day he comes in about this time that I’m telling you about. He says,
“John, your phone’s tapped.” I said, “Yeah, no kidding.” He said, “You
know, I’d like to find out where it’s tapped.” I said, “Hey, be my
So he comes back about half an hour later and says, “It’s not
down Monroe, or Hollywood or Bonanza. It’s farther than that.” He said,
“I’m going to find out.” I said, “You know, you don’t have to. I know
it’s tapped. Don’t worry about it.” He said, “No, I’d like to find out.”
So he comes back the next day and says, “John, your phone is tapped at
the mainframe.” He said, “I went to my boss and told him about it and he
said, ‘If you want to keep your job, you keep your mouth shut.’”
J: He said, “So I’m keeping my mouth shut but I’m telling you. It’s
tapped at the mainframe and they don't have the paperwork.” He said, “I
looked for paperwork to authorize a tap like that and they don’t have
So anyway, I meet Bob. We talk. He thinks me and Gene are totally nuts.
He said he worked at Los Alamos. He said if there had been anything
about UFOs, he would have known. He said, “You guys are crazy,” and he
sat there rolling his eyes at all this stuff we were talking about. So
over the next few months we started giving him information and one of
the things we gave him was where we thought the alien was held at…
J: …at Los Alamos: YY-II. And it turns out... we told him some other
stuff, I forget what it was, but there were three things we told him and
he confirmed all three things. He didn’t confirm that there was an alien
at YY-II but he did confirm that it was a mail stop and that it was
absolutely secret, I mean, one of the big secrets. So he decided to see
if he could get a job up at
So he called Dr. Teller. And I
thought I was there for the phone call. I may not have been, I might
have been there when Dr. Teller called him back, but I remember Bob
saying… ah, Dr. Teller saying: “Do you want to work here at Livermore or
do you want to work in Las Vegas?” And Bob said, “I want to work at Area
51.” And Teller says, “Let me see what I can do.”
So then that was like in November of ‘88 and I remember Bob going for
interviews at EG&G and he told us exactly what they asked in the
interviews. And it was very very technical, and he said he did really
good in all of them because he really knew... He was really proud of
himself. And he said in the second interview, the first question was:
“What’s your relationship with John Lear, and what do you know about
him?” And Bob said, talking to me, he said, “I told them that I do know
John Lear, I go over to this house, I think he sticks his nose in places
where it doesn’t belong.” He said, “What I didn’t tell them is I also
like to stick my nose in places it doesn’t belong.”
So then the next thing I know, is, I say December 6th... it could have
been before or after, I don’t remember... but this table wasn’t here,
there were two chairs there, and he came in. It was at night. It was
about 7 or 8 o’clock and he sat down. I was writing checks, and he said,
“John, I saw a disk today.” And I looked up and said, “What?” And he
said, “I saw a disk today.”
I said, “Theirs or ours?” He said, “Theirs.”
I said, “You went to Area 51?” I said, “What are you doing here? Why
didn’t you find out what’s going on and then tell me about it?” He said,
“No, you’ve taken so much crap over this thing that I tell you I saw it.
It’s all real.”
So we spent a couple hours here. And he said, “I will answer your
questions. I can’t volunteer information.” He made me ask questions.
Then we went outside, stood outside and looked up at the stars and I
said, “Well, if I want to go to Zeta Reticuli, do I go [gesturing in
different directions]… which way do I go?” He said, “This way.”
[gesturing to the right] and was saying how they take off and he had an
explanation for why they had to go to the right first or whatever.
Anyway, that went on for several months. He’d come over whenever he got
back and tell me what he saw. One night he comes in and sits down. After
the first night we didn’t talk in here anymore. I forget what the
trigger was, but we didn’t discuss anything. So he’s sitting there like
this, and giving me the eye, so then we walk out that door, out by the
pool, and out by the stable, and as we walk by, Marilee, who is always
suspicious of everyone, asks, “Where you guys going?” And I say “We’re
just going to go out back and talk,” and so we went out in the back
alleyway there and I said: “What what what what???”
He says, “John, you’ll never know what it’s like to see your first
alien.” I said, “You saw him? He’s alive?” He said, “Yep.” And he told
me the circumstances, that he was being led down a corridor, escorted by
guards on each side. I have a drawing here of when he told me that. What
he said... he said there was a door.
He said it had a regular square
window about 12 inches by 12 inches with wire going through and inside
he saw the back of the Gray, standing with his back towards him, and
talking to two scientists who were looking down at this man in their lab
coats. And the stories go on...
K: He was sort of... his house was trashed, he basically left the
government’s employ. I mean, he was on the run wasn’t he?
J: ...Then it becomes he’s going back and forth up there and so March
21st I’m over at his house and he’s designing a Doggy Death Ray. And the
Doggy Death Ray is because the dogs, Marilee’s dogs, are getting in our
flowers and he’s going to design a little amplifier with a high-pitched
sound which would keep them out of there. It’s Tuesday the 21st. And I
remember watching TV.
And it was the day they sent up a missile from a
boat and it did loop-de-loops. And Bob said, “They’re going to test fly
tomorrow night. Do you want to go see?” And I said, “Yeah, but where can
we go?” He said, “I know a back road to the test site without getting on
illegal property. You can see it.” I said, “Great.”
So the next day he and Gene and his wife Jackie, yeah, there was 4 of
us, get in my motor-home in the front here. And this was March 22nd. We
drive out to Alamo and turn off the road to Rachel, and we’re almost up
that hill-way and the transmission went out. “It’s at night,” he said,
“so we’ve got to be there at sunset because that’s when they test fly.”
So Gene Huff hitchhiked from where we were stuck, back down to Ash
Springs, got a couple cans of transmission oil, brought ‘em back up and
poured ‘em in and then we continued out. And so we got out there just a
little after dark. And we went down the back road into Groom Lake. We
went down maybe half way and we pulled in this little area. And I took
out the telescope, set it up. Bob had the video camera, he set it up.
And we started looking. Then we saw it. It was about 9 o’clock.
comes up that starts going this way and that way and everything and I’m
trying to get this scope with an 8 inch diameter lens focused on the
UFO. And of course there’s no way; that thing is too big and too
cumbersome. Well anyway, at one point the saucer stopped and I got it
nailed in. I said, “I got it! I got it! I got it!” The saucer was about
maybe 30, 35, 40, maybe 45 degrees angled. It was yellow and radiating
something off it. And I said, “I see it! I see it! Gene, quick take a
And so as I stepped away my foot hooked the tripod and it got out
of alignment so Gene didn’t see it. It was making a descent behind the
mountain (gestures straight down).
I’ll show you if we have time here. I have the tape that’s labeled March
22nd and we videotaped all that was going on. Unfortunately the
videotape was sitting on the bumper while all this was going on but we
videotaped afterwards, the conversation about seeing it. Anyway., the
next Wednesday night .. they always tested on Wednesday nights and at
sunset because they determined that was the time with least traffic on
that road so that people wouldn’t accidentally see the saucer.
next night was March 29th and I was on a trip with America Transair in
Cleveland and that was when I called Bob Tuesday night and I said, “You
know, I’m in Cleveland and I won’t be able...” I said, “What are you
guys doing?” He said, “We’re going fishing.” And I said, “Ah cool. I
wish I could go.” That was the night he took George Knapp and Jim Taliani.
Jim Taliani worked at Tonopah Test Range. And it was the week
after that he got fired because when this tape got out that George Knapp
shot they could hear Jim‘s voice saying, “Oh neat! Oh neat!” And they
called him in and said you’re it. It may not have been the next week,
but it was soon.
Then the third Wednesday was April 6th. That was when me, Bob, Gene,
Bob’s wife and her sister rented a car because the motor home was out
and something else was out so we had to actually rent a car. And that’s
when we had the Geiger counter and all the video stuff in the trunk. We
went up there, got all ready, we’re driving in. I said, “Come on, we
don’t need to go any further. Let’s stop here.” “No, no. Let’s get
Bob’s wife’s sister was driving. And that’s when we
saw... You know I said at one time that it was four cars, maybe it was
2, but whatever, there was headlights in front of us, and I said, “We’ve
got to get out of here.” So I told... I forget what her name is.... turn
around carefully, because we’re in sand here and we don’t want to get
So we turned around to haul our asses out of there and it was obvious we
weren’t going to get to the highway before they caught us. So we
stopped. Bob says, “Look I can’t afford to get caught. I’m taking my gun
(he had a 9mm) and I’m going out into the desert.” He said, “When they
leave I’ll come back.” So we stop, he goes out into the desert, I take
the telescope and start setting it up and they skid to a stop.
they’re all standing around with machine guns at port arms and...
actually I ran up the vehicle and put my hands on the top of it and
said, “What are you guys doing here, what’s going on?” They said they
need to see my ID. And I said, “I don’t understand. What are you guys
chasing us through the desert for?” They said, “Well what are you
And so things calmed down. We showed our drivers license. They said, you
know, they made some calls and said, “Look, we can’t kick you out of
here because it’s BOM land, but we can make it awfully uncomfortable if
you stick around here. So make your own choice.” So they left. We waited
about 15 minutes. The trunk was open because I had gotten the telescope
out, so we were kind of blinded. We had no idea that all these guys did
was go about 100 yards down the road, turn around, set up all their
cameras and parabolic recording equipment and were recording everything
that goes on. Bob comes out of the desert with his 9mm.
He says, “You
know, it’s a good thing they didn’t make any false moves. I would have
blasted them to smithereens.” So we talked about 15 minutes and packed
everything up and, you know, we go out and hit the highway and there’s
the Lincoln County sheriff, all the sirens, red lights and everything.
They get us out, you know, hands up, hands against the car, then after
about 15 - 20 minutes I made the comment that Bob will never ever
forgive me for, when the sheriff says, “I’ll need to see licenses,” and
I said, “Mine’s in the trunk.”
Of course everything was in the trunk,
including the gun, the Geiger counter, all the video equipment and
everything. We never let them in the trunk. He said, “All I want to know
is why there are 5 people in this car now and at the test site there
were only 4. And where’s the gun? That’s all I want to know.”
And we spent a good hour hemming and hawing and at the end of the hour
he gets a call and he says, “OK.” His name was Lafrene, Sheriff Lafrene.
He said, “I don’t know why I’ve been told to do this, but I’ve been told
to let you guys go. Now it doesn’t make any sense to me, but those are
my orders. I want you to get in that car and I don’t want to see you
ever around here again.” So we left, driving into town. Now it’s like 11
or 12 o’clock. We discussed what was going on.
And the next day Bob gets a call from his boss .. I can’t remember what
his name is. He says, “Bob, don’t go out to the airport. I’m going to
pick you up.” They drove Bob up to Indian Springs which is the head of
all the area test sites. And they literally took him out of the car with
a gun in his ear and they said, “Bob, now, we gave you your clearance
and told you the secret. That didn’t mean you were supposed to tell all
your friends about the flying saucers. Now do you want to work here or
not?” And Bob was noncommittal.
They had brought the guards that had
caught us and who had talked to us, down, to prove that we were there
and Bob was noncommittal. And a few days later he said, “I’m not going
back to work there.” And we said, “Why?” And he said, “Because the last
time I went on that 737...” he said, “I can remember going up the
K: Oh no...
J: .... and I can remember coming back down the boarding ramp but I
cannot remember anything that went on after that, or between that.” He
said, “I don’t want to work under those conditions. I’d rather not work
under those conditions.”
J: He said, “I know what’s going on and it’s great but I don’t want to
work under those circumstances.” So that’s why he never went back.
K: OK. That’s fabulous stuff. I have a question. We met a guy that said
that underground in Area 51 that they .. I don’t know if the guy was
whacked out or what... but he said they have piles of, like, cocaine,
and they’re drugging people to get them to work there, basically. They
fly them in, they give them drugs, they give them women... Do you know
anything about that?
J: No, but I have every reason to believe that’s true. I mean, the
underground facilities up there are so enormous, they’re so big, they
stretch on forever, they have many levels. I have a friend of mine at
the Goldmine. The people that originally ran that mine, one of the guys
is in jail up at Winnemaka, and one of the guys that’s in there is a
security guard and he tells them.... and the reason a security guard
from Area 51 is in there is because he started to talk. And he’s in
there for life. He tells... what could they do to him now... that it
goes on forever.
There is no doubt in my mind. You see the stuff on Area 51 and they say,
“Oh, I know guys that work there and they said there’s no underground.”
Of course. Because, you know, there’s maybe 1900 people who work above
ground. There’s no reason for them... When you work at Area 51 they
don’t give you a briefing and say, “Now don’t tell anybody about the
aliens we’ve got up here.” Guys who work on airplanes, mechanics, they
have no reason to know that stuff. Security doesn’t work that way.
K: Is it your understanding that Bennewitz was basically messed with
through mind control?
J: (nods head yes) Bennewitz was on to some very good information, real
information. He’s the one that discovered Dulce. He’s the one that knew
about the black ship, the Grays, the Archuleta Mesa. He’s the one that
knew about stuff, Manzano Weapons Storage. Doty was sent to disinform
him along with Bill Moore, to make him look like an idiot.
K: And you knew Bill Moore, right? Is that right? Because Bill Moore has
kind of gone black. He’s not out in public really right now. I guess he
was messed with a lot. But he knows a lot as well, wouldn’t you say?
K: What about
Serpo? I understand on ATS you basically said
disinfo in general but that yes, we obviously sent astronauts...
J: We sent a team. We did send a team. They went to
Zeta Reticuli. There
was three of them. That could be misinformation... who knows? Maybe
there was five of them.
J: But the problem with Serpo as we’re seeing now and with Burisch is
that there’s males and females and that’s not right.
K: What do you mean males and females?
J: From Zeta Reticuli.
K: You mean, aliens that are male and female?
J: ...that are male and female
K: Are you saying there aren’t?
J: No. They are cybernetic organisms. They, the guys who made those
guys, which they call all the J-Rods and the Grays, whatever, those guys
are just cybernetic organisms. They come here. Their job is to see if
this farm... I used to call it an experiment, it’s not an experiment ...
it’s a farm, a soul farm... if things are going along fine. I used to
think it was evil. It’s not.
We’re just developing and those guys, the
Grays, are just here monitoring, seeing everything’s going OK. They pick
up kids when they’re 3 to 4; they pick them up when they’re 7 to 8; then
once they’re 13 to be sure everything’s OK. That’s all their job is.
K: Genetic manipulation, in other words, upgrading the race.
J: Right now we’re arrogant murderers, thieves, you know, and we learn
to grow out of it. When we grow out of that we’ll be able to go and play
with everybody else in the universe, which is a great big wonderful
K: So where do you get your certainty from?
J: My what?
K: Your certainty about what you know? You know what I mean? Is it
because you’ve talked to so many people who’ve been in deep?
K: But have you yourself had any ET interaction that you know of?
J: Probably but I don’t have the slightest memory. The only thing, you
know, that ever happened was when I was 9 or 10 years old. I used to go
down to... on Saturday mornings... to Brownie Brown’s Dance Studio where
I took tumbling, ballet, and tap dancing. It would end at 12. I’d walk
outside the door to Ocean Park Boulevard, get on the bus and go back to
my house at 222 14th Street. It was about 30 minutes.
So one day I get
on the bus after dancing school and I get to where I’m getting off at my
house 30 minutes later. And I remember stepping off, down the stepway on
the bus and looking up at the driver and I was so shocked. I said... I
couldn’t say anything for a minute, then I said, “Didn’t I just take
this bus home?” And he looked at me... it was just the strangest...
thing... It’s gone.... time. Who knows where it went?
K: How much time was that?
J: Ah, probably, well, who knows? I don’t remember being conscious of
one hour, two hours. It could have been an hour or so.
K: Do you feel that the Grays are malevolent?
K: OK. And are you aware that we are basically kind of building a shield
around the planet, to bounce off, you know, basically to have a war with
aliens and that sort of thing?
J: It’s hilarious. I mean, our government is so arrogant, you know. They
know so little. Here they are, they’re building... they think they’re
going to build a shield against the Grays or whoever.
There may be some
kind of a war going on, but the basic theme, basically what Earth is all
about, is development of soul. There’s billions of us in the universe.
Billions just like Earth in various stages of development. Some of them
are not as advanced as we are, and some are more advanced. But it’s all
about the soul, our nature, not being such murderous arrogant thieves.
Going on, we have to develop.
The sun is not a series of thermonuclear explosions. The sun is an
electromagnetic sphere and what it does, it reacts with the electromagnetics of certain planets, all the planets in the solar
system, which enables them to have atmospheres and environments just
like Earth. Mercury is not hot enough to melt lead, it’s just like
Earth. Neptune is not a big gas giant, it’s just like Earth. The only
big gas giant in our solar system is NASA.
I’m just talking now about what they’re trying to feed us now on
Project Serpo and the reason is I believe that there is no way the government
can hide any more the Grays. They have to come up with a story. But
since they don’t know who they are or what they’re doing, they just want
to say, “Yeah, they’re from Zeta Reticuli. Yeah we’ve been there. Yeah
it’s a mom and pop deal. We played soccer with them. Yes. It’s no big
K: Except that they were doing genetic engineering and they took the
parts of one astronaut, the body parts, and were cloning him. That’s
part of the Serpo story as well.
J: I didn’t realize that.
K: Yeah, a lot of people miss that.
J: Which astronaut?
K: One of the astronauts that died. On Serpo....
J: Oh, oh, yeah, OK.
K: .... and was basically found to be cloned. And so supposedly they
almost started a war over finding they couldn’t do last rites on the
body of their fellow astronaut. It’s a great story, but who knows if
J: It’s a great story. I may be wrong, but I believe it’s
K: But we’ve been to Zeta Reticuli. The root of the story is actually
true, as far as you’re concerned, because of what you contact are
K: Because there are some pretty decent people....
J: I’ve seen... the day is 90 Earth hours long. I haven’t seen that
information come up. It’s the 4th planet from Zeta Reticuli 2. So if
you’re standing on Reticulum 4 you can see both suns, Zeta 1 and Zeta 2.
K: Wow. Yes, because apparently there are pictures of some things like
K: Now are you saying that you don’t believe there are pictures?
J: No there could be, there could be. What do I know?
Bobby Ray Inman, Bob Oeschler, MJ-12
K: Well, you seem to know a hell of a lot! So we’re just trying to get
to the root of what you know. What about Bobbie Ray Inman? Do you know
what his involvement is?
J: ….he got involved in
MJ-12… Remember who Bob Oeschler was? Bob
Oeschler was really a neat guy. He charged into this, with me. I mean he
stood right there in that door (pointing across the room) and saw some
kind of a beam come out of this place back here. We know, or I believe,
that this whole mountain is combed with, you know...
K: That’s quite a mountain you have behind you…
K: It’s incredible.
J: We believe it’s all these kind of bases or whatever you call them
inside of this thing. Oeschler saw that. Oeschler was the guy and if you
haven’t read this story or heard it. You’ve got to read it. He was back
east one day, and I went with him, drove around for hours with him when
I was flying cargo. I’d get out of my airplane at 10 o'clock at night
and we’d drive until 6 in the morning. We did all kinds of crazy things.
But Bob one day walked into EG&G and says, “How do I get into the saucer
program?” Or something like that.
K: But what’s Bobby Ray Inman got to do with all this?
J: OK. So Bob Oeschler finds Bobby Ray Inman at some public attendance,
and goes up to him and says, “How do I get in touch with MJ-12?” And
Inman looked at him and says, “Let me see if I can help you.” And so
that started the interaction between Bob Oeschler and Bobby Ray Inman.
K: Why was Bobby Ray Inman so helpful?
J: To Oeschler?
K: Yes. Is he sort of like a fan of disclosure, would you say?
J: Yeah. There’s always been part of MJ-12 that wants to disclose and
they always get up to the threshold of “Let’s tell the public,” then
they always back away, and I don't know why they always back away.
K: That’s really fabulous. We want to thank you.
J: You asked the right questions. I was just waiting to see which
direction you were going to take. I’m just telling the story of what
happened. That doesn’t mean I’m right, you know. That just means what
J: Zero point energy? I’ve never heard so much bullshit in my entire
life. I mean, that is just, if you’ll excuse the expression, crap. I
mean it’s not going to happen. It didn’t happen. It won’t happen.
K: Are you familiar with
J: Sure. Fantastic work at Stanford and University of…
K: Well, he’s involved with something to do with zero point…
J: Absolutely, yeah, and he keeps sending all this stuff on
K: …and you just don't believe it.
J: No. It’s a scam.
K: You think so? You think it’s a scam because scientifically you think
it’s a scam or because people have told you, your contacts, are saying
it’s a scam?
J: No. I think it and I’ll take the blame if it’s not.
K: What about
2012? You think that’s a scam?
J: Yes. We’re continually in wars. Continually the
world’s going to end. It’s to keep us all riled up and worried and
everything. All of us just want to go home, we just want to make a
living and go home and be with our family and kids. That’s all we want
to do. But we’re continually going after the Moslems you know and
continually being, you know, this is a threat and this is a threat.
it's not gels and stuff like that then it’s just, you know, it’s just
Those of, you know, hey, it’s all bullshit.
UFO Power Plant
J: [showing a round shiny object: a model of the back-engineered UFO
power plant from Area 51] Joe Vananetti made this and it’s just
exactly like it was.
In here is the 115. And Bob had three of
these and they came from Los Alamos. And the government stole two of
them and one of them is in a secret place in Vegas.
And I thought that
me and... there’s only three guys in the world that knew where it was
and reading George and stuff on ATS, he claims to know where it was but
I don’t know whether he does or not. But that’s the half-scale model and
I’ve got the drawing that Bob made for me in February of ‘90, of how it
The 115 was bombarded with protons and the heat through a
thermionic generator provided the positive voltage to run the ship and
then the gravity 'A' wave was drawn off so that they could use it to go
travel throughout the universe…