from ThelemaAscension Website




Carlo Dorofatti is a prominent Italian researcher and expert in Western Esotericism and related topics. He is the author of many publications including the book Esoteric Physics.

Carlo Dorofatti personally released this interview (in Italian) the first time on October 10, 2000 in Vigevano (Italy) for a cultural association named ”Associazione Culturale Il Circolo”.
It has been repeated (in English, in a wider version) in Dubai (UAE) on January 21, 2006 during the annual meeting of the “Endoteric Order for the Global Ascension” thelema-ascension.org.
This text in English is related with this last interview.




Carlo, where can we start on this vast topic?

Firstly we must allow and take for granted that the phenomenon is a fact: people have been directly involved in sightings or encounters of various natures and have provided accurate testimonies, documents and proof.


Even by filtering the vast majority, we are left with a large number of encounters worldwide since time unmemorable, although today we shall focus on the most recent occurrences of this complex phenomenon which involves culture, mentality, psychology, anthropology and sociology of our time.

We are therefore talking about something concrete that has an existence and I thus disagree with Professor Zichichi when he states that UFOs are “the flying elephant of the 20th century” or with those who pretend not to know about the existence of this phenomenon.

I would start by saying that UFOs are a phenomenon which is not necessarily connected to one of its typical components or manifestation: the famous “flying discs”, a term now overtaken by the word UFO. This is in fact only one aspect of the phenomenon. In today’s Ufology, at least from an anthropological and para-anthropological perspective, UFOs are not only mysterious objects, more or less physical, that hover around our skies or seas. They are a phenomenon which comprises quite a lot of other aspects, which leads me to take an esoteric approach to understanding it.


So you are inviting us to look at this issue from a different perspective?

Indeed. The UFO subject is one that contains an infinite amount of other related subjects. We must start somewhere so let’s start by talking about the phenomenon itself, which is undoubtedly a fact that has had an influence in our recent history.

The phenomenon became strongly apparent, documented and socially accepted during the 1940s. In 1947, a very cardinal year, the public opinion was shaken by the testimony of the famous civilian pilot Kenneth Arnold, who saw and described what he called Flying Saucers in the sky.



Kenneth Arnold


He was talking about physical, round metallic flying objects. From there started a wave of sightings, occurrences and situations that reaffirmed the existence of this phenomenon worldwide.


At this point I do not believe it is necessary to recapitulate the entire story: there are plenty of archives, books and credible documentation with regards to these occurrences, such as The World’s Greatest UFO & ALIEN Encounters, (Chancellor Press), as well as various research centers around the world holding thousands of documents, photographs, testimonies, videos, etc.


Although I must warn against the vast amounts of unfiltered information found on the Internet, it is recommended to stick to serious research centers specialized in the matter if anyone wishes to know more about the actual occurrences and manifestations of the phenomenon.





We shall therefore start with the assertion that the phenomenon is a true fact and that since the 1940s until today it has influenced the world with subtle codes and parameters that are not always decoded by our military or scientific means and methods.


What were the reactions that these events provoked?

At the time (in the early 1950s) I would say that the reaction were mainly of two kinds. On one side, from the US government at first and then most governments in the world afterwards, we have denial and strict silence which in return influenced the Media into becoming skeptical about the events.


This was in the first few years until it became practically impossible to deny. We were then in the “Cover Up” phase, with a series of political, military and intelligence operations aimed at denying, discrediting and manipulating the occurrences eventually leading to disinformation campaigns. Still today many believe governments know but remain quiet about the subject.


I am convinced they don’t know as much as people believe they do. They are faced with events they have no control on and therefore prefer not to comment or publicly speculate about the possible explanations. The little pieces of information that governments know on this subject and have uncovered throughout the years has been utilized for scientific-military purposes but in reality, they still lack a great amount of information on the matter. I am certain that if this phenomenon was to disappear all of the sudden, most governments would sigh in relief.


The only thing governments continue to deny consistently is the existence of UFOs and therefore the subject is cut short at that point with any government entity.


What was the other reaction?

On the other side, we have the common man, where two behaviors have occurred: fideism for some and skepticism for others. Skepticism being of course reinforced by the “official culture” and entities trying to discredit the events with some degree of science or scientific talk behind it.


What do you mean by fideism?

In the United States in particular, we were able to notice immediately certain reactions of the public towards the events which could be defined as fideistic. Groups of people saw in the UFO phenomenon questions of religious, ethical, historical and philosophical nature. Here we must put some attention on the inexperience of certain individuals, that we could define as a sort of “modern prophets”, the so called “contacted”.


These individuals were generally of medium to low cultural and educational backgrounds that had never been involved in any activities related to the phenomenon (aside from George Adamski, of whom we shall talk about in a short while) and, one after the other since 1948, started communicating about their involvement with UFOs and related events, not as mere witnesses but having been in contact with the “crew” of the UFOs. This suddenly changed the focus from UFO to so called “alien beings”.

All of this has always followed a specific paradigm or recurrent scheme that takes us to science-fiction elements that already existed prior to the UFO phenomenon as we know it and as we are describing it at this moment.


We shall not take into consideration for the time being the archaeological mysteries as well as the research and interpretations of ancient theology. The concept is again related to the archaic way in which human being perceive their reality, as an isolated world in space and time that hopes to find other realities out there.


Therefore, the ‘Contacted” follow this line of thought: UFOs exist, if they exist then someone must be operating them, these beings cannot be from this earth and eventually they will get in touch with our world – so this is what happened to me!


How do you consider the first contactees and the messages they have brought?

The way I see it is that a good portion of these people speak in good faith. They have most probably been involved in some sort of event and have all been telling their story, which are all similar and different at the same time. The paradigm, seen as a whole, was more or less the same but there were significant differences in the factual contents and details of every story.


The schema and what we could call “classic” content of these encounters is what comes to us through George Adamski. Adamski was an American of Polish origin, a catholic astronomer with theosophical interests of para-esoteric nature with a Christian mysticism point of view.


In the early 1950s, along with a group of friends such as the famous anthropologist Williamson, Adamski attempts to come in contact with these “alien” beings through a classic method of medianity: spiritism and the use of Ouija tools.


This first group of contactees was composed of mere beginners in the subject as well as a couple of people with some esoteric background. They apparently had two types of contacts: the first one through the Ouija Board and second via radio – real CB radio contacts with questions and answers.


From these experiments came the book The Saucers Speak where he tells about the communication between his group and the UFOs. The first book talks primarily about the radio contacts.


The answers provided were quite coherent and through these radio contacts they were even able to set appointments during which occurred the famous sightings. Nonetheless, in my opinion, the content of the radio messages where poor sometimes even ridiculous. It seemed as though this group of people had come into contact with a reality that was not within the context of an alien civilization that was presenting itself to the people of the earth.


I must however state that the basic ideas will keep repeating themselves in the various messages and the subsequent contactee groups will receive more articulate and complex messages from the beings of these different realities. Anyway, in the case of Adamski, an appointment was made in a specific location where the UFO landed and Adamski had his first true encounter along with various witnesses.


This happened in 1952 and from this very moment started Adamski’s history in relation to the phenomenon as well as the modern history of “contactism”, for lack of a better word.


How did these Aliens present themselves?

Well it is said that the typical flying saucer landed and down came an alien being, tall blonde with blue eyes, who said his name was Orthon and he came from Venus. They communicated telepathically. From this moment onwards, Adamski became a sort of Ambassador of that alien race and continued to do so until his death.


Adamski was also received by some important people, such as the Queen of Holland and even Pope John XXIII. Undoubtedly Adamski became the very archetype of contactism.


What was this message?

In summary, the message was as follows: we are part of an intergalactic confederation of planets but the humans of the earth know nothing about it because we have not reached the necessary evolution in terms of level of consciousness to understand it. They were a more evolved civilization within this confederation and they wanted to help us get closer to their culture and therefore our culture of origin.


For this purpose, they were supervising us and had something to say about our nuclear experiments which in more than one way can harm us and them too… This message has ethical, religious, social and apocalyptical components.


Thereon, Adamski gets aboard one of these “machines” which he claims took him to the dark side of the moon where he states to have seen oceans, forests, valleys and rivers.


Which is all nonsense, isn’t it?

Well in my opinion it doesn’t mean that Adamski made it all up. For instance when he describes such things as the “space fireflies” he is talking about real events that occur in space and were not known at the time. These phenomena were later confirmed by science 10 years later, during the first human space flights.


We should also consider the fact that, if a person from the 50’s is taken aboard some strange thing, taken somewhere far away (perhaps the moon) and put in front of a port-hole for him to see outside, he could have taken the space fireflies for lanterns… who knows what he saw or thought he was seeing… I mean, Adamski and the others were taken through certain experiences that they were able to perceive and remember, or were allowed to remember, or simply were able to metabolize without losing their minds: let’s consider for a moment that UFOs could originate not only on different places and dimensions but also from different times, which could well be terrestrial after all.


This could lead us to consider an entirely different aspect of Ufology. Last but not least they could have made it all up but in that case, they were quite good at making up things that would later be confirmed by modern science. Nevertheless, Adamski was the founder of a paradigm which had a tremendous impact and continues to have one until today although it had its peak in the early 50’s.


Through physical or medianic contacts, contactees all say the same thing: we came in contact with “them” and they told us that the world is nearing a catastrophe, we humans are getting it all wrong, they know what we need to do to evolve, they are here to help and they chose people who are not in the public eye, therefore manageable, because if they contacted Nobel Prize winners or great political figures this would have caused panic among the populations of Earth.


Therefore their selection logic is based on fideism and to contact people with a certain sensibility through unusual channels rather than presenting themselves to the masses thus avoiding a great cultural shock.


But these claims were absolutely disturbing, how could they be accepted globally?

In a nutshell, it is a preparation program for a part of humanity in order to make the evolutionary jump, which shall coincide with the Age of Aquarius and other radical long awaited changes, of spiritual, cosmic and archetypal nature. Of course here we open the door to many other related subjects, which I have elaborated upon in my books.


The thing is, these subjects already existed long before the UFO phenomenon became part of popular culture. There is nothing that comes through the contactees that we haven’t seen or heard before through other sources readily available to most people. Some of these sources are thousands of years old.


These are not new facts and subjects but the press in the 50’s did not know that and made a huge deal out of what Adamski had to say. It would have been great if someone had compared Adamski’s claims with literature from the Theosophical Society, Alice Bailey and all other esoteric and para-esoteric researchers and research groups, in order to understand the vast amount of precedents available on these subjects.


The subjects were nothing new but the UFOs were, or should we say flying discs, which replaced somehow a previous form of collective contact with parallel realities: the Spiritism movement of the 1800s.


From that moment onwards, what was the effect of the contactism phenomenon?

Contactism created quite a large worldwide movement or, as to be more precise, a network of movements. Within this network of movements are interlaced a variety of extremely interesting elements. On one side we have the various experiences told by the contactees, which are rather phantasmagorical. On the other, there are very interesting ideas and concepts that emerge in ante-litteram to the identical concepts and ideas later found in New Ages movements.

Among these, in particular, the perception of the Universe as a living being and the fact that the Earth and the other planets are cells within a macrocosmic body, therefore real entities and living ecosystems with which we have to reach some kind of symbiosis. Each one of these cells has its own interaction and organic synergy with its inhabitants as if they were enzymes, for instance.


There is therefore an interchange among these cells or inhabitants that are exchanged between one cell and another, each with its own particular function. So if one cell is sick, the external antibodies will intervene to cure it and this analogy is used as a notion across the Universe.


From this logical line of thinking has emerged a complex idea of cosmic philosophy.


So through these various testimonies and stories we are able to infer a unitary line of thought?

I would say, yes. Even if, when you look at the details, these stories are different from each other. For example, the contactees that refer to Venus are obviously talking about different “Venuses” which are also profoundly different from one another. And we must also consider that from the very beginning, the contactees talk about two kinds of aliens or superhuman entities that can be somehow contacted: the positive and the negative. In short, the good guys and the bad guys.


The good guys come to help us and the others, a sort of space (or time) Nazis, come with the intent to predate on us, to experiment violently on us for genetic purposes or to extract organs and substances from human individuals (I shall discuss this phenomenon later on), to conquer or enslave us.


We do not find this particular topic in Adamski but in various other less credible contactee groups.


So we see the emergence of two different types of paradigm?

Precisely. One of these groups is rather recent and led to the infamous and tragic collective suicide of Heaven’s Gate whose founder, Applewhite, was fundamentally a contactee himself. He had undertaken this dualistic argument for a few years prior to the incident.


Let’s remember that Heaven’s Gate was not a satanic sect or any of the other things that was said by the media at the time but rather a movement of mystical-contactee origin that stated that human kind is the heir of other civilizations with which it has to reunite.


And in order to “ascend” and reach what was supposed to be some kind of subtle space craft that would have taken these people in spirit form, they had to liberate themselves from their physical bodies and therefore from the enslavement of this society which is dominated by the other kind of alien, the bad guys.



Has any of this happened closer to you, in your native Italy?

Of course. Gradually this topic starts to evolve and various groups in Italy started to emerge.


In fact, Italy was a rather relevant centre of contactism of its time. The first prominent figure in this subject was Eugenio Siragusa (image below) who started his experience in 1952, the same year as Adamski.


Only about 10 years later, he started a movement called the Centre for Studies of the Cosmic Brotherhood (Centro Studi Fratellanza Cosmica) which was the cornerstone of Italian contactism.



Eugenio Siragusa


Contactism in Italy has also seen other forms of contactism, slightly less UFO related and with stronger spiritual connotations. For instance the Florence Circle 77 (Cerchio Firenze 77) with the messages from the various Masters of other dimensions which made the so called contact with our world through the medium Roberto Setti.


Today, one of the strongest contactee movements is the one started by Giorgio Bongiovanni, which seems to be the continuation of Siragusa’s movement


Why did you decide to give such an interview? In what way does contactism relate to the esoteric line of thought?

The study of contactism and the UFO phenomenon in general is undertaken because most certainly behind the manifestations lies something interesting that could enlighten various aspects about our own reality.


Contactism has formed a kind of relative culture and all those who are more or less involved in it, with their more or less reliable experiences, have contributed to the general observational material within that culture. We must perform our research carefully, trying to understand all the information available and sorting what is original and what is not.

There is undoubtedly a common experience that is thereon translated and interpreted differently, often with some mystification. This is the biggest pollutant for such research. Mystification occurs when the individual who experienced a manifestation of the sort, often beyond his or her comprehension, starts to adapt, add and distort the facts, thus annexing content and experiences of others.


This occurs for various reasons, including a lack of conscience or ethics or simply a need for personal glorification.

Just as it often occurs in the Medium phenomenon, we often see a mix of reality and mystification which becomes difficult to set apart. We often see that the public contactees, those who make a living out of it, start by presenting themselves as messengers, then become envoys, later prophets (more or less explicitly) and eventually semi-gods or divine or alien incarnations.


Putting aside the obvious mystifications and ravings of attention seekers, in general these topics are not spoken of with acrimony. This is due to the fact that these people started with a real belief and do not end up losing their minds but rather being caught in a complex web of societal factors. Once they are in the spotlight they need to stay there, most often for economical reasons.


This leads to a distortion of what was originally intended and leads them to make up additional stories.


Indeed, the phenomenon holds many sides to it. How can we establish a criterion of evaluation?

On its own, the UFO phenomenon has always been a thorn in the foot for the rationalists because it is an ambiguous and slippery phenomenon due to the fact that most solid and demonstrable evidence is also the most absurd. As a matter of fact, experiences lived by a lot less sane and sensible people than Adamski are also those with more tangible and solid evidence.


On the other hand, the more mystic, competent and interesting contactees rarely carry any proof. The phenomenon is not continuous or coherent, which leads to another topic, rather than the contactees we talk about the abductees and those who have simply lived through strange experiences.


The most common stories come from ordinary people who were coming home from a night at the movies or from the office, down came a flying saucer, out came the alien on duty (and we shall also discuss the typology of this) and did something strange like punching through the car and leave or even stealing the underwear (as one person stated!) or abduct them and perform horrible tests on them.


Now of course, between the underwear lady and Adamski who was given the task to communicate with the World’s leaders, it is obvious to see which story has a more interesting and long term effect. But Adamski’s story is also the least documented one. The underwear lady had marks and prints for all to see that were scientifically authenticated and Adamski had no proof.


It is therefore evident that behind the various forms and shapes of the occurrence there is something real that cannot be framed within our existing criteria.


Can we state that the phenomenon is indecipherable in the sense that the so called aliens could well be from other planets as they could be from other places (for instance inside the Earth), or even parallel or superior dimensions and when they interact with us the phenomenon becomes unexplained?

This reminds me of the Flatland story… yes of course, what you are saying makes sense. This is in fact the new trend in modern Ufology. But at this point and returning to the anecdotes I’ve just told you, the phenomenon is something impersonal. It may originate from external as well as internal dimensions.


It takes the form of the “container” it finds or to which a form and appearance is given (be it energetic or physical) which goes along our capacity of interpretation, our psychological preparation and our senses.


Therefore we are not only talking about UFO typology, which funnily enough seem to follow the technological advancements and perceptions of the time they are seen, but rather Spirits, Masters, Appearances of the Virgin Mary, Fairies, Gnomes… which can all be boxed within the realm of an inter-dimensional contact phenomenon during which it is us humans with our thoughts who give them a shape and form, based on auto suggestion, expectations, hopes and fears.


This and our capacity to imagine and elaborate what we are coming in contact with, either intentionally or by accident.

What I mean to say is that, ultimately, it is a phenomenon which is influenced, if not caused, by our own conscience. We therefore enter the realm of what I call Esoteric Ufology.


Can you help us understand what you are suggesting here?


Take Adamski, for example. A Theosophist, a Catholic, a Gnostic Christian who says he met beautiful and luminous angels that took him into space and gave him the cosmic task of bringing peace and salvation to Earth.


Now let’s take another interesting contactee example that came after Adamski, Billy Meier. This is a complex character.


In the case of Adamski, no one could ever say that was ill-intentioned because he lived his life in profound conviction of his beliefs and actions. He died with his convictions without earning anything out of that.

Billy Meier (image below) on the other hand made a sudden jump, becoming an international attraction and began commercializing books and gadgets, which took him down the “source of income” route, which today pulls a large portion of the New Ages movements into business and commerce.



Billy Meier


Billy Meier had to constantly update his performance in order to remain in the spotlight.


He therefore started to contradict himself and added obvious mystifications into the factual reality, inspired by science fiction the growing expectations of the public’s imagination.


Billy Meier talks about “good” aliens, his Pleiadian friends who care about the destiny of Humanity, with whom he meets regularly (among which a woman named Semiase corresponding to one of the fallen angels of the Book of Enoch, which Meier most probably discovered later on). All of these aliens used mythical names that related in one way or another to some divinity in a pantheon somewhere.


Then there were the “bad” aliens.


On this topic, Meier wrote:

 “…There are also different life forms that have acquired much knowledge and have freed themselves from their environment. They travel through space and occasionally come to Earth. Many of them are rather unpleasant creatures and live in a type of barbarism that frequently is nearly as bad as the terrestrials.

[..] Many are evil and power hungry, therefore it could happen that they abduct some terrestrials [..] and take them to their planet of origin where they become experiments.

[..] These intelligences want to take Earth and its inhabitants under their control.

[..] Many of Earth’s leaders are under the control of these beings without even knowing it.”

In Italy, one of the prominent figures of this kind of contactism was Germana Grosso. She was a Medium from Turin and in the 70s she claimed the existence of “good” and “bad” aliens, to which she attributed all the wrong-doing in our society.




Noumi (Channel - Germana Grosso)





She most certainly contributed greatly to the patrimony of Italian contactism however in my opinion there is a lot to be skimmed out of her claims.



Germana Grosso



How do you relate to these experiences?

I am a researcher and lecturer in the field of quantum sciences but I also represent a line of thought and experiences of esoteric nature and a point of reference for an Order of initiates of Thelemic basis.


For many years, I have held lectures and conferences in Italy and abroad, especially in the field of Esoteric Physics, Alchemy and meditation, covering some of the topics I have explained in this interview, which then lead to Atlantis and the various historical theories that relate to the presence of alien intelligence on our planet.


With regards to the subject of this interview, I can say that I have experienced contactism directly and also lived the phenomenon from within, though trying to maintain the forma mentis necessary for this type of research. Keeping an interpretative mind allowed me to live these experiences in a controlled manner, which is what I intended as a researcher.

I didn’t experience these manifestations spontaneously. It was wanted and planned, practicing a certain type of psychic technique aimed at obtaining the link between parapsychical realities. It is sometimes required to let go of some control, which is what these entities need in order to get used to manifest and communicate in a reality which contains radically different logics. This of course is not a complete alienisation of the manifestation but rather an equilibrium in order to come into contact with ourselves and with this type of manifestation (and both go together) in a more aware and conscious manner. The equilibrium is important: letting go but maintaining the will to see clearly.


Often in certain groups and currents, especially the religious or neo-spiritual ones, it is said that culture makes the mind heavier, which must remain empty to make space for other things.


Well I believe that one must beware and be very skeptical of such claims and philosophies.


How can religion influence this research?

Well as an example, it is interesting to note that a lot of the contactees were influenced by the Christian paradigm: there aren’t just good angels and demons – typical Judaeo-Christian dualistic moral schema – but good and bad aliens.


The good ones became the Avant-gardes of Jesus Christ, who is in their minds an alien as well and will return to save us. The Christian paradigm is one form in which the UFOs have materialized; in this case it is the container that was found.


In Italy for instance, almost all the contactees were Christian, therefore when confronted with a supernatural reality they codified it in a Christian manner thus generating a mix of manifestations among which are UFOs, Christ, the Virgin Mary, the stigma and various saints, going all the way to declaring themselves the reincarnation of one or the other.


This went on with such strength that contactism turned into a religion.


How did this phenomenon develop in the U.S. and around the World?

In the U.S., the phenomenon took a more populist route, more towards the random encounters, where common people suddenly became involved in strange situations to the point where we reached the abduction testimonies, retrieved under hypnosis but backed with objective evidence. This started also happening in other countries around the World and the testimonies were considerably coherent with one another.


Sightings and encounters of various types have been documented in the tens of millions of which tens of thousands relate to abductions where the subjects were used in genetic experiments and to obtain biological substances from them. Nevertheless, we cannot divide so neatly the line between a contactee and someone who experienced an encounter.


For instance, he most significant research in this field, for instance John Mack’s work and many others on encounters has shown that even common people with no mystical or spiritual expectations behaved as contactees once exposed to experiences that their current logic hard a hard time to digest and comprehend, to the point where their mystificative behavior became a mechanism to help them cope with their traumatic and often brutal experiences (some claim the extraction of blood, sperm, eggs and organs, or even sexual violence for reproductive purposes and creating hybrid – we shall not enter this particular topic for the time being).

Obviously we are talking about something considerably different than Adamski’s views. It is important to note that manifestations that appeared to contactees in the Adamski style presented themselves more or less as follows:





Stepping away from the Ashtar Sheran type, you then get this:





Quite different!

This is the form of alien generally described by people with encounters and, more specifically, abductees who are taken, analyzed, occasionally brutalized and thrown back on the street.

These tend to be smaller, cold, with large heads, grey and impersonal, with two small openings on the sides for ears and the very characteristic large black eyes. Some of the abductees who have described and drawn these “greys” at first just described their random first experience. Later on however and once they had digested the events, they became obsessed researchers of this subject, sometimes even bringing salvational messages and taking this type of alien back to the “good” side.

It is also interesting to note that a lot of characters, one of which is Whitley Strieber, firstly go through the experience in a negative and confused manner but then with time they start to open up to the alien world and start claiming that it has aspects that relate to us.


They talk about a possible apocalypse on Earth and the necessity to have a new race. They don’t talk about spiritual ascension (as did Adamski) but rather of a physical hybrid race that can survive on Earth after humans become extinct.


Streiber’s book, Communion, explains this topic in length.


How does the behavior and eventual involvement of Governments develop and evolve?

Well in a simultaneous manner to all of this, Governments changed their strategies along the way. There is no longer a vow of silence but rather a vow of noise. All of the suddenly, former high ranking officials of the army, government and intelligence agencies, with the excuse of no longer being in service, state that they can now reveal what was really going on.


We can think of examples such as Philip Corso, Thomas Castello and Bob Lazar as well as many other former members of US Intelligence that suddenly reveal their truth and explain the what happened behind the scenes at Roswell, the Majestic 12 cover up, the concealment of the alien bodies (greys) kept in the infamous Area 51 and so on and so forth.


From this we start the see the emergency of numerous conspiracy theories. We can also include the so called pact between the US Government and the alien nation in 1947, which allowed greys to abduct humans for analysis and experimentation as long as they were returned safely. In exchange, the US Government would receive technologies such as propulsion systems, nanotechnologies, laser, optic fibre, etc.


It is said that human DNA could be used to create a superior hybrid race but another theory states that they need our DNA to reconstruct their own for the survival of their species. It seems as though these greys, apparently originary from the Zeta Reticuli system were also involved with “evil” reptilians from the Draco constellation and have lost control of their civilisation to these reptilians. The theories go on and on.

Obviously these stories are a lot more phantasmagorical than what Adamski had to say. It is also strange that all of the sudden all these testimonies arise from nowhere, perfectly coordinated and coherent, which leaves a certain could of doubt onto the more serious and prepared Ufology sphere.


All of this feeds the conspiracy theories, especially when certain deaths are emphasized suddenly making them suspicious, such as Philip Corso himself. After he explained the alien propulsion systems and described how the vehicle and the pilot enter in symbiosis (as Adamski had already stated), he managed to die.

It all feeds into a cloud of mystery and fanaticism, which only adds to the confusion.


Indeed, it is very hard to discern from it all. What are the decryption keys you suggest for the esoteric approach?

Well, I am presenting a series of scenarios that superpose each other and generate great debate internally among Ufologist, contactees, skeptics and the general public.

Additionally, after the sudden turn of rationalists, that firstly mocked Adamski but are now kneeling at the feet of Bob Lazar and kissing the stigmas of Bongiovanni, it seems as though everything is clear. But in reality nothing is clear at all!

What we can do in order to start making sense of things, is to bring together authentic skepticism with authentic Gnosticism, understood as the capacity to interact with knowledge in an active rather than passive manner.

We can assume that behind the UFO phenomenon, there is some kind of psychic occurrence, deeply connected to the mutation of the psychic archetypes that govern our planet.


As Carl Jung said whilst referring to the mutations linked to the Age of Aquarius, we are faced with changes in the collective conscience due to the displacement of the points of reference (constellations) and the related spiritual and cosmic paradigms. All of this is manifesting, in multidimensional planes of existence, seeds that inexplicably are interacting with our interior dimension and our projection of reality, thus becoming physical events.

At this point, the behavior is that of an individual confronted to the unknown (from an anthropological point of view, it is similar to the relationship between men and gods) with the intent of going through the experience in a cognitive manner rather than in a conditioned and alienated form. In other words, in a controlled manner. By controlling the phenomenon, the mask falls and the real nature is revealed. Therefore, these realities, these forces, begin presenting themselves differently in relation to their apparent form.


The phenomenon is then studied for what it really is and we go into the historical research of the relationship of humanity with parallel or superior realities in function of the evolution (or involution) of its consciousness.



Aleister Crowley


For instance, already at the end of the 1800s all the initiate and esoteric societies claim to be in contact with superhuman

Intelligences that were part of a hierarchy of beings and were previously unknown to us. These claims were the preface of the New Age movements and brought back into the spotlight a series of concepts, knowledge and values in relation to the sacred (the Theosophical Society, The Order of the Rose Croix, the Knight Templars and their successive evolutions until the Thelemic movements, Aleister Crowley, etc.).


One of the first to point this out back in the days was Madame Blavatsky. These phenomena were the “ancestors” of UFOs. These beings were of a superior intelligence and more evolved consciousness than humans, they have influenced our history from behind the scenes and it was possible to come into contact with them.

In the Theosophical idea, which has influenced esotericism and spiritualism until the New Age, there are two hierarchies: the White Brotherhood and the Black Brotherhood. The first operates towards our spiritual evolution and the salvation of our planet. The other opposes our evolution and operates towards our dissolution and eternal enslavement.

Evidently this is taken into consideration when we hear the contactee talk about the good and bad aliens and it is obvious that it is based on this principle. This is also found in modern New Age movements.


What is the change towards which we have to open up?

Well first of all, the fact that all of this originates from different dimensions does not mean it must be accepted in a passive manner or worse, with fideism and religiosity. Otherwise we fall into the good and bad schema of Judaeo-Christian religions and therefore become passive receptacles to the manifestations and not being able to take control of our state of consciousness and defining what we see with our subconscious rather than for what it really is.


These dualistic and moralistic schemes are unfortunately also used in new sects and communities that present themselves are New Age but in fact use the fear factor to the benefit of the guru on duty. If instead we take a different approach towards this reality with openness, selectiveness, activeness and a non critical view (our rationale is insufficient), in other words a “magical” approach, we will realize step by step that the manifestation becomes impersonal, as an image that loses its contours. It dissolves but doesn’t disappear.


It becomes more authentic and with less of our emotional charge, of our cognitive schemes, of our expectations and fears.


Can you illustrate this further?

Well, the look of the greys with big elongated and extremely black eyes (indecipherable, without emotion) brings back the reminiscence of predators from humanity’s collective memories and therefore our worst fears. Their appearance can easily be compared to several pictorial interpretations of evil and demonical. It is therefore an image from within the collective psyche.


This is just an example of course to help understand the complex mechanism behind the phenomenon. Behind the UFO phenomenon there is an impersonal reality that takes the shape and form of our psychic contents and of the archetypes of our collective unconscious, until it solidifies them. This can be seen with the examples and images of UFOs in the 1950s which were far more primitive technologically than those seen in the 80s and so on. It curiously followed the collective imagination of science and science fiction.


Yet all the documentation and testimonies are authentic since the manifestation of the reality that is concealed behind UFOs takes different forms in line with the times.


But is there an actual message that can be extracted from the various contacts and encounters?

If you analyze the enormous quantities of documentation now available, I would say there is.


Putting aside the various created situations (psychic messages, contacts and abductions), we could say that there is a will to create groups which gather in such a way that they generate a certain amount of psychic human energy and direct it towards this topic: as if that reality was fed with it or retains important to come into contact with our energy will even play with our fantasy and imagination to achieve this.

We must keep in mind that the same argument is valid for manifestations interpreted as religious in nature. Indeed, the vision of the Virgin of Fatima seems to have had obvious UFO connotations from the testimonies of the people present (however UFOs were not recognized as such at the time). This also refers to the topic of miracles – natural phenomena that occur due to an overload of energy – fits within this discussion.


Let’s not forget that a lot of contactees acquire healing powers after their experiences.

It is important to note that modern physics is now questioning the fact that the Universe as we see and interpret it actually really exists or not. The concepts and theories of space and time are being revisited; science now talks about a multidimensional Universe, doors to parallel realities and the virtual reality of matter.


The fact is that we do not know what and how the Universe is made so worrying about whether or not there are other inhabited planets in the Universe is a false problem: we don’t even know if we truly exist! Until we know more about the Universe and become more aware of the vast multidimensional nature of it, we can only apply existing logic and understanding, which is not nearly enough to grasp the full concept of reality and the phenomena within.


The approach to understanding UFOs and aliens should not be about obtaining answers but rather asking the right questions. We need new questions that are more appropriate to the concept of reality rather than just appearances. The UFO phenomenon, perhaps one of the most interesting and provocative of our time, can help us consider new questions as it represents a door to a world beyond.


We must let go of the masks and get rid of the desire to be herded like sheep by some cosmic shepherd that takes care and protects us from the big bad wolf. Or even to think that there could be something of alien origin inside of us. Until we truly know what we are and what our conscience is, we will never be able to obtain more evolved decryption keys of reality.


The fact that the collective conscience of humanity, through the contact with energies of this kind, is able to materialize machines will remain unexplained unless we become aware of these issues.


So what do you think about the retrieved UFOs or the famous alien autopsy?

Well I am not surprised that physical evidence could have been retrieved, be it crafts or bodies where autopsies have been conducted or even live ones who have been interviewed. However, we must be cautious on the veracity. It could all well be part of the vow of noise. When in Ufology you see extremely obvious or clear elements or something not ambiguous enough chances are it is fake.


Real things are ambiguous in the sense that the phenomenon itself is ambiguous and often comes into dissonance with our own logics and surpasses our understanding.


So then what are UFOs?

I simply don’t know, but I do not want to know under these terms simply because any answer would only be a partial answer. As a researcher I am not interested in half an answer. We must instead try to understand how things function, how we interact with alternative realities and this is where “Magic” comes up along with a variety of ancient traditions that have a lot to teach us.


The classic contactee is usually not aware of this and is not intrigued enough to enquire about the Dogon traditions for instance or the principle of Ceremonial Magic, instead of the Vimana descriptions in the Veda. Contactees often talk about things they know very little about, without any anthropological or esoteric knowledge behind what they are saying.


Their experiences become the absolute and are then subject to alterations with the external pressures they are subject to such as fashion, the phenomenon of the masses, the commerce and market logic and of course the mystification because when people ask for the truth, some kind of truth needs to be given out…

On the other hand some people started off with contactism but then related the events to the Magical realm (and we shall clarify the term Magic later on). They connected the events with a series of other factors instead of isolating it. Isolating the experience will never lead to any interesting results or information.

The only concern is that a vampirical, dark and gloomy image of the phenomenon is being fed through. This trend is created by the so called topic authorities like Bob Lazar. People that go around with a briefcase full of evidence, alien implants extracted from abductees (abductees have often stated to have been implanted devices to keep them under control).


There are also X-rays and physical evidence. But these characters that make a living out of the conferences they give on this topic have turned Ufological research into a Business. Of course, each one is free to do as he or she likes but the real concern is that turning Ufology into something that is preached could lead to fideism or even worse: let’s not forget that this phenomenon interacts with the collective psyche and if the collective psyche gives a certain shape and form, the phenomenon will take this attributed shape.


It is a bit like what some of the after death theories say: the departed will find themselves in the paradises or hells they have created for themselves.


So what do you suggest should be done to adequately confront the phenomenon?

Well it could be very interesting to start modifying ourselves the paradigm in order to see how it interacts with a suddenly different mode of interpretation or point of view. As is stated in Quantum Physics, some phenomena give different results according to the condition and changing factors of the observer.


Are you saying that UFOs exist as a manifestation of our conscience?

I am saying that UFOs exist as long as they find a psychic content that gives them a solid form, shape and nature. From my point of view, it would be too simplistic to just state that they are in our minds. They are a result of our conscience just like everything else but then we enter in the realm of mysticism and spiritual physics.


For now let’s just say that they are a shape and form given to a form of energy that doesn’t originate from us but that is part of certain aspects of reality that we still know nothing about (whether it is interior or exterior doesn’t matter at this point because we would enter into a different type of discussion where a different type of logic needs to be applied)

In any case, we are talking about an exogenous alien phenomenon that opens up like a window towards another reality and that should lead us to enquire how much of that "alienness" is really within us or at least to question how much of what we perceive as real comes from what we have told to be our world and reality.

This has been taught to us by two “evil masters”: firstly by a certain a kind of rationalism that is derived from the other evil master, a certain kind of religious dogma that has alienated us from the Sacred and the Divine within (as concepts and absolutes) and has taught us that we are a nice herd that requires a shepherd to guide it, protect it and save it.


There is a very thin line between a good shepherd and an evil one so if we let this paradigm spill into the UFO phenomenon, with our,

  • logic of good and evil

  • salvational expectations

  • sense of guilt

  • fears

  • tendency to be faithful and submissive beings waiting to be graced...

...it may well turn against us.


On the other hand, if the phenomenon is handled in an active, aware, critical and analytical manner, all of the sudden the physical manifestation rarefies until it is dissolved.


It exits from the loop of emotionally charged manifestations on the physical plane (as it often occurs in paranormal phenomena) and becomes an event with a more harmonized and coherent connotation. At this point, the most appropriate behavior should be scientific-Gnostic approach: there is one discipline that has always attempted to teach the balance between reason and perception and that is “Magic”, starting always with the harmonization of science and conscience.


In my opinion, this is the behavior that should be applied on the UFO phenomenon, which inserts it in a larger topic as merely a component of the whole.


So we enter the topic of Magic?

Indeed, but the term needs to be redefined for the wider audience, later on.

Let’s connect this topic to all the subjects we have discussed previously, such as Magic, Esoteric Physics, Thelema, Crowley, etc. Actually since we mention Crowley, we have to note that the archetypes now related to UFOs had already been presented much earlier than the UFO phenomenon in certain esoteric circles.


As a matter of fact, below is a drawing done by Crowley in the 1920s that illustrates a force, a superior alien intelligence with which he was in contact in a very similar manner:





This entity contacted by Crowley was defined by him as superhuman and was identified with the name of LAM. It was part of the so called Secret Chiefs along with another entity called AIWASS, the entity that conveyed to him the Liber Legis.


We can’t help but notice that the physiognomy and traits of this being are somewhat similar to those found later on in the modern contactee descriptions.


But the same thing can be said of various primitive drawing and illustrations…

Indeed. Authors such as Kolosimo, Sitchin and Bauval bring our attention to a variety of depictions of ancient symbols and divinities (Egyptian, African, Sumerian rather than Mayan, etc) that recall the idea of alien beings with even suits and helmets. Personally I would be rather cautious on the interpretation: the fact that divine beings were drawn with big eyes doesn’t necessarily mean they were wearing masks or devices and perhaps the eyes and antennae could have had a symbolic magical-mystical meaning to these people.


We should not attempt at all costs to attribute significations that belong to our own current logic and understanding of reality to symbols from profoundly different cultures than our own.


Of course I won’t even go into the forced conclusions and interpretations made by some authors in order to sell more books…


You spoke of Aleister Crowley earlier on: how does he fit into this subject?

We can say that the first form of esotericism that investigated reality as holistic and multidimensional, thus unifying Esotericism, Magic, Esoteric Physics and Ufology was the Thelemic current, founded by Crowley.


He has the merit of understanding the connection and being the precursor of the great archetypal changes of the Age of Aquarius. Later on Grant, Bertieaux and various other research movements of Thelemic-Maatian influence investigated the theories of Chaos, Stellar Magick, etc.


Are you talking about studies on parallel realities?

Yes but with many nuances and different cultural heritages.


Clearly paraphysics was invented by physicians who inherited a certain classical culture and on the other side you have the New Age movements that push towards an extreme simplification of the mechanisms, often emphasizing the dualistic idea which suggests that from these alien dimensions, other beings and forces attempt to keep us under control and vampirise our vital energy (religions in this case would be the social and psychological instruments created to extract the vital energy out of human beings; this energy then goes to feed these external forces).


Obviously this insists on the dualistic approach, a rather distant concept from the paradigms of the Age of Aquarius (or Eon of Horus). This approach has led to the appearance of sects, pseudo-Aquarian communities, neo-spiritual groups and new gurus of various sorts.

It is important to point out that even notable researchers like Castañeda have fallen into the dualistic trap. Towards the end of his career, Carlos Castañeda started talking about malignant entities that surrounded mankind and feed upon us like simple food, etc.


Wherever there is a line of thought along these lines, it actually creates a dualistic scheme of reality which will take on the same expression: these forces exist, I am not saying they don’t – they are mentioned even in my studies and writings – but they are entities created by us humans as a result of thousands of years of ways, behaviors and attitudes...


They are not the historical cause of humanity’s sleep and spiritual involution. The awakening must therefore begin from within us.

It is us who are allowing this predation and we have locked ourselves into a variety of political, social, religious and cultural schemes that make sure this continues in this manner. There is now of course en energetic mechanism that ensures the continuity of this entrapment but it was created by mankind in the first place.


And if we continue to think in this manner, things will be as we want them to! The entrapment will continue.

We are in fact capable of creating the hells and paradises that we want. Even when certain phenomena that are in between various realities manifest, they do it as per how we, as a collective entity and consciousness, have determined they should manifest.


If we suddenly come out of the idea and principle of sin, the devil, the paradigm of sheep-shepherd-wolf and from the constant necessity to be reassured and “saved” (which has also distorted some of the core value of the New Age, turning things into a bunch of superstitions with followers and money making schemes), the phenomenon would probably change drastically to our own benefit.


Today’s modern scientists talk about a Holographic Universe. Can you help us understand this concept?

The Universe is product of the projection of our senses and from our conscience. We are part of, or rather, we are one with the Absolute (conceptually and energetically).


The Absolute for some reason we have yet to understand manifests in different frequencies of energy and conscience.


As these frequencies come into contact, they create, as it is in our case, an apparent 3D image orientated in a unidirectional time dimension, which constitutes our plane of existence. In short, we are locked inside a sensorial and circuit until we learn to control this circuit, we cannot have the absolute certainty that things are the way we think and believe they are: Simply due to the fact that we vibrate on the same frequencies, we have the sensation of physicality. But this is only true on a plane parity.


Esoteric Physics explains Magic (or Magick) is the multidimensional science of reality, the mathematics to understand and move within the various planes of reality and conscience (which are in fact one and the same), but remaining cautious not to think we can apply the same criteria from one plane to another.




So, to what extent is there real objectivity to what we consider to be material?


As a matter of fact the UFO phenomenon seems to be some sort of confusion of planes because it mixes with our physical and material reality something that in fact could be very different, becoming physical when it sees fit, later becoming energy again, disappearing or mutating completely, especially when we try to define it within a set scheme.


How do you connect what seems to be a revolution of scientific and cultural thought along with the return of a certain esoteric philosophy more or less linked to the New Age and the Age of Aquarius?

This is a rather historical moment where all that was once an established fact is thrown back onto the discussion board. The planes are shifting and mixing in order to reformulate what we are defining as reality: perhaps we are at the edge of a great mutation, a big change (someone might have called it apocalypse) and great affluence of energy. In some of my studies and writings I have gone into more detail on the topic of parallel worlds and the detachment of planes of existence.


Surely at a global level, we are in the midst of a mixture of paradigms that need to reformulate in a new manner, according to potential futures and schematics that could go in very different directions from one another.


Given that the UFO phenomenon is extendable to the entire human history, can we consider the hypothesis of Sitchin?

I think his theories are fascinating and audacious although after the first book, things started to take a rather commercial and sensationalistic turn in the subsequent writings.


But this is only my personal point of view. We could most certainly investigate further, with different instruments of research, the various possible contacts that may have occurred throughout human history, even in the very old history of our planet without necessarily making improbable reinterpretations of the Bible as a cosmic saga but still putting into discussion the birth of religions and the relationship between mankind and the Sacred.


The Bible may have passages that could bear a Ufologist interpretation however there are also cabalistic components that can offer a completely different meaning as well. For this purpose perhaps the Veda are far more explicit… it is important however not to take things too literally; at least not as a starting point.


Furthermore, if we take Plato, Pythagoras, Proclus or even Marsilio Ficino and Giordano Bruno, we can find elements of great interest that can definitely make us think and meditate more than many modern authors that surf on the fashion wave of the moment.


What do you mean by Magic or Magick?

Certainly it is not the magic of wizards and fairy godmothers or that of stage magicians. This term has a more complex definition also from an etymological perspective. From an anthropological and esoteric point of view, Magic (Magick) defines the general approach towards the knowledge of reality and the values of the Sacred, where human beings place themselves in an active and synergetic position within reality: in more philosophical terms, humans adore the gods but then eat them to become God.


This is the behavior of the magus as opposed to the faithful follower who abandons his will to the divinity for it to do as it pleases. In the end, the result could be the same if we enter into a discussion about mysticism, but the means and ways to reach that are considerably different. The serious mystic is that who can maintain control and a coherent magical behavior that will allow him to reach a communion with the Absolute within him.


Evidently, in order to understand who controls who, we must firstly understand who we really are: the first thing that needs to be understood is ourselves and our True Will in order to then be able to apply it onto the Absolute. Therefore it is possible to become a contactee overnight (especially if the contact is accidental and spontaneous) but one cannot become a magus overnight.


If one starts with a phenomenon of contactism and later acquires the faculties and knowledge of a magus, it is possible to combine both and make a notable qualitative jump. The whole concept is to develop the capacity to access the phenomenon within the timeframe and modalities established through a form of harmonic and balanced concurrence of forces.


This must be achieved without any abuse of power or losses of lucidity even during the time when one remains open and fully available towards something greater. This is accomplished through the ever more precise use of will power and the ever widening use of our own senses, as well as mental and spiritual faculties.

At that precise moment, we can have a glimpse on what could be reality, with less and less filtration, but also a glimpse on the means and the purpose of it all.


This is what Magic (Magick) is: a communion with the supernatural without having to submit to an authority that doesn’t exist, because the only true authority is our own conscience, as long as we have been able sharpen it and make it evolve according to our true nature.