Nigel Kerner interview

25 February - 7 March 2005

from Karmapolis Website

Spanish version



In an interview without clichť, a retired American scientist/engineer from the University of California, Berkeley, SETI program, follower of Taoism, enthusiast of the amazing and mysterious behavior of the most elemental particles in physics, Gerry Zeitlin talks about extraterrestrial life, the SETI, the Myths and the ancients Gods, about Reptilians and the Disclosure Project.

A non-classical point of view, a non-ideological one that opens doors rather than build definitive ideas.


A challenge to the pure Darwinist (just a little fascist) vision of the Evolution of Man. To the great displeasure of the academic authorities and mainstream media, the kind of approach sustained by Gerry is a fascinating adventure that opens the doors to another conception of the plausible origins of Mankind, maybe extraterrestrial.


Open SETI and The End of Enchantment, the two Web sites animated by Gerry an Malou Zeitlin look at other signs than the classical electronic signal from an unknown source that for which SETI scans days and nights.


Open SETI, as its name seems to mean, enlarges the scope and examines signs and traces, artifacts from ancient civilizations, old scriptures and sacred texts from less known religious traditions and other clues suggesting that mankind and civilization pop up suddenly from nowhere without progression and logic.


Maybe those old texts and Myths could tell real stories with real people and maybe again, Myths are not only metaphor and allegory.





What is your formation and your background?

You can find my online biography.

I probably started all this by getting involved in ham radio at the age of 13. Eventually I became an electrical engineer with a Bachelorís degree from Cornell University and M.S.E.E. from the University of Colorado. I pursued further graduate studies in math, physics, astronomy, and astrophysics at the University of California, Berkeley.


My intended career had been in electromagnetic fields and waves, wave propagation, and radio astronomy. But I wove a more complex fabric, including brainwave research and information security, owning a metaphysical bookstore, and managing UC Berkeleyís SETI (Search for Extraterrestrial Intelligence) project, known as Project SERENDIP, in the years 1978-1982.


Berkeleyís present-day SETI@home is an outgrowth of that project.

As your readers may guess, this does not tell the whole story. I have always wondered about the great mysteries of life and have tried to understand them, at times following psychospiritual disciplines associated with Buddhism, Taoism, western occultism, and others without name.

One of the great mysteries for that has engaged me has been the problem of the human race: what it is, how it came to be what it is, and where it might be going.

You previously told that you worked in the field of information security. What is the purpose of that function?

That was a sweeping generalization that was supposed to cover my work for the US Department of Defense many years ago, and the civilian positions, mentioned in my online biography, that I held in more recent years.

Probably the best way to describe these two periods is to say that the DOD activities depended on my background in electrical engineering as applied to communications, while the civilian positions were more strictly in information security per se, specifically uses of public-key cryptography and the securing of computer systems for large corporations and government agencies.

Why did you create Open SETI and what is the purpose of it?

My experience with Berkeley ís SETI program was not satisfying. You could say "I knew too much" to be able to take the SETI paradigm seriously and eventually I decided it was too compromising to continue with it. I left the field in 1982 but watched it from a distance for many years.

In 1994 I wrote a paper, The Opening of SETI, describing why I thought SETI was irrelevant to its own quest for contact, and proposing ways to "open" its paradigm. After presenting the paper at a conference, I decided to make a web page out of it - a small website. Two years later I broadened the scope of the website to include consciousness-expanding and experiential aspects, calling this The End of Enchantment. Later I cut this into two websites: The End of Enchantment, which became a joint project of Malou Zeitlin and myself, and Open SETI, a greatly-expanded version of the original paper.

Open SETI finds that the interface between the original SETI premises and the unknown can be expanded infinitely, like some sort of Mandelbrot fractal. There are many regions in that interface that SETI forbids even thinking about, but which are a pure delight to pursue. But Open SETI is serious, not a flight of new-age fancy. I would hope that a true scientist or engineer would be able to recognize and accept this.

Another very important departure of Open SETI is the way it treats myth. Simply put, Open SETI honors myths. Right from the introduction, Open SETI asserts that all human experience is mediated by myth, and western science is foolish to believe it has escaped this essential condition. Open SETI bids us to relax and allow our myth and many others to bring potential knowledge to us.

Finally, Open SETI and The End of Enchantment are audacious [bold] enough to try to construct a myth, weaving elements that our scientific/technological society has ignored.

Do you experiment personally some strange experiences like UFO sightings, abduction, etc. What were the consequences in your life and your work?

I have nothing to offer you here. I am driven by a sense of seeing clearly (or so it seems to me) and a need to explore and express what I see.

You didnít lived personally an experience with alien, UFO, abduction and your relatives either. So, why are you so fascinated by this subject? As a scientist, you could always follows the standard "pattern" of the search of knowledge and donít be attracted by "ET hypothesis". So, what are you deep personal motivations?

Each of us has an "essence nature" (I have just now coined this term for this interview) with a fragment of consciousness that has been extended, distracted, and to varying degrees "trapped" by the physical world and its games. The "essence nature" includes its being, its knowledge, its powers, etc. It is really quite an incredible being from our everyday perspective.


For reasons that are mysterious at this point, the "essence nature" provides a varying amount of itself, its knowledge, and its powers for the use of its incarnated consciousness fragment. I believe it remains for the consciousness fragment - what we call a person - to grasp what has been made available to it at any particular time, or not. And before it can be grasped, usually there needs to be a reminder of some kind that will cause the person to take notice.

For some people, a major life-changing event may be required to cause them to take notice of what has been offered to them. For others, it may be a dissatisfaction with the world as presented, which causes them to actively search. For others, there may be a piece of news or some other information that is out of synch with the conventional view, but is simply recognized as noteworthy. A parallel to this would be an event in a dream that reminds one that there is waking world that contrasts greatly with the dreamed world.

I was of the latter type, or maybe I was dissatisfied and searching. It didnít take much... just a story that was out of synch with the common world but that reminded me of something. The story came to me in the form of a book that I had somehow acquired when I was around 14 years old. It spoke of UFOs, and in particular, of the case of a military pilot named "Mantell" who chased one while flying his Air Force jet.


I donít recall much more than that. Just the sense that this could not be a mistake; this really seems to have happened and it means everything - EVERYTHING - must be different from what I had believed only a moment before. The story was completely inconsistent with the common world view, and yet I chose it instinctively as being consistent with the truth.

Do you ever encounter scientists that have strange experience with E.T (abduction, UFO sightings and transcendental "revelation") working for SETI for instance? In case of yes, how did they evolve? What were their perceptions of the problem of E.T phenomenon?

"Working for SETI..." You probably mean The SETI Institute. I have never been told of anyone in that organization having an experience like that. However I can think of one or two individuals in the broader SETI community who have had this. It troubles them deeply because they cannot discuss it publicly, and yet it is the most important driver of their work.


Would you mind if I ask you to describe more precisely what happened to them?

One of them has attempted to live a double public life. He poses as a scientist who thinks the way other scientists do, while he also maintains a personal website, open to the public that goes into extremely intimate details about his experiences and how they disrupted his life and the lives of others who were close to him. Anyone who reads the website will realize that a person cannot have experiences like that and still think and operate the way a conventional scientist does.


THAT realization can have an impact on the professional prospects of the person, one way or another, depending on what the person is attempting to do. Whether it HAS had that impact, I cannot say. I presume the person of whom I speak understands the danger and is proceeding with courage and his own kind of integrity.

The second person has decided to conceal his experiences from public view, and to attempt to find professional opportunities that satisfy him on both sides of his lifeís experience. He would probably agree that this has been a difficult path.

The general meaning to be drawn from the experiences of these two individuals is that "strange experiences" can present very great challenges for anyone trying to pursue a professional career in a world that does not officially acknowledge the reality of those experiences.

Let start with this "hypothesis": some scientists and workers for SETI are well aware of the UFO phenomenon and really believe that the US government is in "physical" and tangible contact with E.T, E.B.E and related technology. How can you explain the "schizophrenic" situation of the SETI institution which continues to pretend that we are still looking for a signal, an intelligent contact and which know the reality of the situation. Donít you think that this "hypothesis" is realistic? Do you know some scientists (who will remain anonymous) who agree with this hypothesis?

The hypothesis is quite plausible, given what we know of our societyís other institutions. In this model, a few scientists and workers at the top will have been briefed and there will be a program which they are following. Those not at the top, who do not know, would be moved by the force of personality of those who do know. This model would lead to the behavior that we see.


What would be the motivation of those who hold the knowledge?

It would either be 1) very black or 2) a misguided patriotism or maybe some sort of fantastic earth-human chauvinistic protectiveness. If 2), I can hardly imagine the convoluted rationale that they use.

In another model, no such knowledge is held by anyone and they are operating in such a way as to maximize the possibility of keeping their organization viable and their salaries paid.

In another, they are blinded by the rules of their science and are trying to be good scientists and to be accepted as professionals by the scientific community.

Which is correct? At one time, around 25 years ago, I personally knew some of todayís SETI leaders. AT THAT TIME they seemed to be operating according to the last and next-to-last principles mentioned above. Today anything is possible.


Do you think like certain authors that Science is entangled in a web of manipulation, of slowing up of knowledge?

Yes. I make some references to this situation throughout my website, including one to Halton Arpís essay What Has Science Become? in the Journal of Scientific Exploration. In fact, Halton Arpís career is a perfect example, as he has shown that presently-accepted cosmology is all wrong and can be maintained only by suppression of perfectly good data.

The problem is that science requires funding and all funding sources have their agendas, which are based on acquisition of economic, military, or political power; not primarily the pursuit of knowledge for its own sake - although there is a measure of allowance, recognizing that pure knowledge today can lead to power tomorrow.


Do you think that the SETI will voluntary not change the way that they analyze the "useful" frequencies that they agree to check in case of an intelligent signal?

Ideally, if "SETI" detects a signal that meets their simple criteria for "intelligence", and that is not obviously of earthly origin, they are supposed to focus more resources on that signal, looking for confirmation of the detection and increasing their ability to discern any details.

In fact, it is already acknowledged that tentative detections must be checked with authorities against the possibility that they are of clandestine human origin.


I ask you, if it is then determined that these are signals of artificial nature and NOT of human origin, do you think the authorities would release the information into the public domain? Can you explain to our readers the concept of "Incrementalism" which looks to be quite important in your perception of the E.T phenomenon?

Thank you for recognizing the importance of this key concept in Open SETI.

The principle is so simple and obvious, yet is not recognized by ANY scientists in the SETI community. It comes about because SETI confines itself to searches for evidence of "ET" activity that matches our own present-day or expected near-future capabilities. You see this all the time: when one of these SETI scientists proposes a new search methodology, he or she will without fail justify the proposal by showing that our own society would be capable of producing the evidence for which they would search.

The most obvious example is SETIís refusal to look for evidence of a local ET presence, because they have been persuaded that ET would not be able to come here from wherever they are. Now that has been modified to allow a little discussion of the value of searching for robotic probes because we know how we would build those.

As our knowledge and technology improves incrementally, then the range of search modes that SETI is willing to discuss also expands by the same increment. It is as though we are willing only to search for our technological mirror image.


Like Nigel Kerner (some of our readers are familiar with his theory), you seems to give a certain importance to ancient sacred text. Can you give us some ancients texts that looks important to explain the origin of man and how those old scriptures can be correlated to last scientific our archaeological finding?

We are still waiting for our copies of Kernerís book to arrive, so we are not yet familiar with the texts he uses in his research.

I have not read any of the original ancient texts, although The Book of Enoch and The Popul Vuh are at least on my list of materials to study, and of course I acknowledge the Vedas, the Nag Hammadi texts, and other scriptures from diverse cultures around the world. However, in terms of derivative works, I might mention that The Shining Ones (Christian and Barbara Joy OíBrien), which I am reading now, extensively consults several little-known texts, including Kharsag Epics Nos. 1-9 (taken from Sumerian tablets), The Atrahasis Epic (a story from nineteenth century B.C.E. Mesopotamia that includes both a creation and a flood account), the Askew Codex (a collection of ancient Coptic documents), and the Bruce Codex (another Coptic collection).

As to how to correlate these with latest archaeological findings, I can only suggest the obvious: use them as suggestive guidance in planning research, compare findings with them, contemplate the meaning of discrepancies, and so forth. In other words, consider that whoever wrote them may have been recording actual human experiences.

You donít seem to agree with one point of the theory of Nigel Kerner and Michael Cremo about the devolution concept: the fact that we are in world of entropy, of more and more chaos? Can you explain how and why you donít agree with this? Can you explain to us who La Violette is and why you agree with him?

Yes, entropy perpetually increases in a closed system but the system that we take as our physical world is not closed. This is a very important part of the world view of Paul LaViolette, whose work is highlighted and reviewed on several Open SETI pages. Readers can use the websiteís search facility to locate the key passages.

Briefly, LaViolette is an "astrophysicist" whose work is not in the mainstream but has turned some very important heads. I used the quotes because he earned his Ph.D. in systems theory, although he has published in the field of astrophysics, and has had access to the Very Large Array, etc.

His several books comprise an elegant "theory of everything", beginning with the dynamics of the subquantum domain, showing how this generates subatomic particles and physical fields, including gravitational fields, and their observed characteristics and behaviors, building all the way to vast cosmological systems, not failing to bring in human mythological systems along the way. LaViolette accomplishes all this with just a very few equations describing subquantum dynamics. Thatís it! the result is breathtaking.

Now, for the purposes of answering your question, Iíll just say that for LaViolette, energy isnít just "there", arising out of the mythical big bang and running down ever since. Rather, it comes out of the subquantum domain constantly and in accordance with specific principles and conditions. The most important condition is the local gravitational density. The greater it is, the more energy "comes out". This "genic energy" is incredibly important for understanding how astronomical objects work.

Important for us, here and now, because, living in a galaxy as we do, we are subject to what LaViolette describes as "Galactic Superwaves" - periodic galactic core explosions whose shock waves have in the past and will continue to rampage through this galaxy and all others.

Out of his theory, LaViolette lists numerous predictions, which have been being fulfilled one by one ever since he originally published. Many more have yet to be tested!

You are probably waiting for me to say whether or not I think species can "evolve" upwardly in such a system without the help of an outside agency. My answer to that has perhaps not so much to do with the influx of genic energy as rather with the programming in DNA, and this programming represents information/energy from an unexpected and unknown source.


This is a separate issue. We do have DNA; it does have an incredible program in it; various other races have tinkered with it. I believe they too have DNA-based genetics. So what do we have here? Perhaps you can tell me.

What do you think of the Disclosure Project of Dr Greer? Jean-Pierre Petit, a French astrophysical scientist think that Disclosure project is a trap set by Intelligence agency to track the military and scientist who wanted to tell the true, that it is in fact disinformation?

I have always thought that the Disclosure Project has been based on naive expectations. Disclosure cannot be forced; those who hold the information are far too powerful to be pushed into doing what they do not wish to do, or saying what they do not wish to say. And the media will always protect them.

Therefore, whether or not it is a deliberate trap is not a significant distinction. Whistle-blowers will not achieve what they desire, but they will expose themselves. In the process, they may entertain a few spectators.

What do you think about the Reptilian thesis defended by people like David Icke, Branton, etc. who believed that all our civilization, our world and our religions are manipulated by a race of ET called the reptilian (identified as the Anunnaki) and that all the demonic activities recorded in the history of religions are in fact those Reptilian-short Greys aliens? Do you agree with Jacques Vallee or even Nigel Kerner when he sees the E.T as non physical entities, some kind of "Godhead" trapped in a devolutional process? Or with the thesis that those entities come from earth, inner earth (hollow earth theory, underground civilization, bases and tunnel)?

There are many questions within this question!

People like David Icke come from an ordinary style of consciousness to paint a very spooky picture. On my own pages both in Open SETI and The End of Enchantment I try to handle this in my own way. Yes, we have a serious problem.

Regardless of physical heritage, of which I am not certain, I do think we have been under the direct influence of "controllers". Countering this is our own higher aspect, which is supreme, but which leaves our incarnated part to deal and grow, or not, according to its own predilection and prowess. There is a game aspect to all of this. Yes to the concept of "Godhead" trapped. And yes to something very important going on beneath our feet. I canít be too specific; I just do not have the information.

Do you agree like John E. Mack that the alien phenomenon is a good thing for us, that they are in fact benevolent?

I donít support that. "Benevolence", however, can be found on a higher level, from which the game emerged. My conviction on that point makes it possible for me to sleep at night and to enjoy my days.

Do you agree with some theories (like Kerner) that our evolution process could be explain only by an Alien and intelligent outside manipulation (the presence of Junk DNA is still a mystery)? And that the Darwinian voluntarily misleads us?

Again, sadly, Kernerís book has not arrived! But DNA developed somehow. We and others may learn to "improve" it. But the DNA itself... the question is whether or not it could have evolved out of simple molecules given the entire universe as an ensemble of possibilities, and endless time (not just a few billion years as currently believed). I guess I am not ready to answer that question!

Did you ever heard about the twelfth planet hypothesis from Sitchin? The fact that a planet that can sustain life donít need to be close to the Sun and that a planet with light elements (not heavy like metals etc...) with water and a capacity to self produce her own energy (radioactive, some kind of inner light) can sustain life. The so called twelfth planet is in this case and brings the elements of life on earth. Earth at the beginning was not a good candidate to produce life because to much heavy elements. Do you think that this conception is scientifically possible even if it is unorthodox?

I have read most of Sitchinís books. They provide much information that has been neglected by modern society. But they do not provide all of the essential aspects of the picture he paints, and they have other "downsides" which we could address if you wish.


One of the gaps relates to your question: How did the "Anunnaki" happen to be living on this planet "Nibiru"? Did they "evolve" there (assuming humans and humanoids "evolve", which is an assumption I do not make), or did they arrive from somewhere else?

If they arrived from somewhere else, and did not simply originate and evolve on Nibiru, then the characteristics of Nibiru are not so important, are they?

This comes under the general heading of what I call "colonization", a consideration that has been utterly missed by the SETI community because they have been persuaded that interstellar colonization by living beings is utterly impossible. Thus they go on in a tiresome way about "good candidates for producing life" and "bad candidates". Aside from colonization by living beings, there is the interesting possibility of colonization and even environmental engineering by DNA itself. You will have to refer to my pages for more details about that.


Why the USA is so concerned about ET search phenomenon, alien abduction, etc?

I donít completely understand your premise. Do you mean the people of the USA or some open or black aspect of the government? Or some other "black" group not officially connected with the government?

I will assume you mean the common levels of American society - the common people, and everyone else not a part of a black group. Then I have to ask, how concerned are they? Perhaps you mean they seem to be more concerned about these phenomena than the European or Belgian societies are. And that would require some sociological study to determine even if the premise is correct.

I would just say that the people are as concerned as somebody wants them to be. That "somebody" has a power structure that can control media presentations. The people follow like sheep. Therefore, somebody wants the society to have exactly the concern that it does have. And why does somebody want this? My answer is perhaps supremely paranoid: they want it because it will assist them in their consolidation of power.

How might it so assist? It could be a deflection or distraction designed to handle peopleís noticing that something is "broken" in the common world view. Or it could be a step toward a major operation of some kind.

Because of your position and your conception in physics and metaphysic, have you been ostracized or victimized by your colleagues?

Never. For most of my life I was able to "compartmentalize" my thinking and discourse. But this was not satisfying, as you can imagine. After I began to develop Open SETI, I found that my colleagues not only could not grasp what is was, but were not even interested.

I do know that one or two of them would occasionally browse my pages, but this would be their private experience and we never discussed it.

Do you believe that one day, in a very close future, we will have a clear and full disclosure about the subject of UFO and Alien?

Disclosure? No. An event promulgated by aliens themselves? They have not done anything like that since the "gods" left us several thousand years ago.


Who can tell whether or when they will do it again.